Will the Sightron line of scopes drive down the prices of the competition?

The interesting bit is that if a higher end product lowers its price(assuming it has the margins to do so), it has the risk to be just as(or more) detrimental to their sales as just keeping their prices up while another brand tries to compete with a good but less expensive product that might eat a little bit of their sales, not to mention it can hurt a brand pretty badly if its not done right. kinda brings us back to the cell phones market eh...

My impression is that the few high end brands are just pushing to go better, and they know that they're better of not trying to touch the lower end consumer market that is already overly served and low margins.


And its always worth considering the $ exchange rate with price fluctuations when prices appear to be going up or down, it can be an illusion more than anything(though an annoying one sometimes).
 
You may get brands to manufacture scopes at a lower price point to compete with others, such as Zeiss does with their Conquest line.If you're expecting S&B to drop the prices of their PMII line to the level of Sightron without any other changes, it's not gonna happen.
 
SND said:
The interesting bit is that if a higher end product lowers its price(assuming it has the margins to do so), it has the risk to be just as(or more) detrimental to their sales as just keeping their prices up while another brand tries to compete with a good but less expensive product that might eat a little bit of their sales, not to mention it can hurt a brand pretty badly if its not done right. kinda brings us back to the cell phones market eh...

My impression is that the few high end brands are just pushing to go better, and they know that they're better of not trying to touch the lower end consumer market that is already overly served and low margins.


And its always worth considering the $ exchange rate with price fluctuations when prices appear to be going up or down, it can be an illusion more than anything(though an annoying one sometimes).
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Wise man here.

1) Offering a cheap(er) product is detrimental to "branding". You'll never get away from those comparing a diamond back Vortex to a Razor.. Nightforce wouldn't be an "elite" brand if it had a 500$ scope. It's why people buy NF over the Razor even though most reviews say the Razor has better glass, just as good build, FFP, and a great zero stop, all for $100 more than a NF NSX. But vortex has to contend with their low end optics "reputation".

2) People pay for the brand name and appeal. Some know they over-pay, others don't. Why do people put rediculous Oakley stickers on their vehicles? Or Apple stickers? They have bought into the brand. It markets itself. People feel increased value if they pay more. They also consider their product to be better because THEY bought it. (in my case, Razor, haha)

I've said on here numerous times, the NSX NF is a good scope, but not $2200 scope. It's just a bit of a void in the market and they are fully taking advantage of it. If it was a zero stop, robust build, good glass for 1600-1800, then yea. Great buy. They make you pony up 400$ for zero stop and 56mm though and at that price range, their glass is starting to suffer.

I fully expected Sightron's S-trac to take advantage of this market. Offer just what I listed. $1500-1600, optional FFP, robust build, and a good zero stop and dominate the NSX scope line. It's a big hole in the market not being chased after by many companies. I don;t consider Elite's because they make #### scopes. (har har)
 
tiriaq said:
With the question being if the availability of Sightrons would affect the prices of other higher priced scopes.
This thread has been off the rails for a while, with nothing to show for it.
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OK I'll bite into this. To establish my affiliations I handle most rifle scope lines sold in Canada with a couple of exceptions like Sightron, Huskemaw and a couple others that don't come to mind. My first exposure to Sightron was several years ago to the entry level stuff that was no better or worse than anything else made in China at the time so we dropped the line when the then current distributor got out of Sightron. I am very reluctant to jump into new lines as evidenced as to why we were so long to get into Vortex (which is now a major line for us). When I saw Sightron making a come back into the mainstream in Canada I saw that Mystic P. and Peter Dobson were doing a good job already and since I have no personal involvement in Bench Rest or for that matter sell much to that style of shooting I decided to stay out. Clearly our main focus in scopes is medium to premium hunting, long rang/tactical and varmint hunting.
I am the only current Canadian member of the Leupold Dealer Council in the USA. We last met in the summer and will see each other just before Shot in Jan in Las Vegas. We discuss all manners of things either specificly involving Leupold products, developement, and competition. Within this dealer group of about 12 dealers from multiple store (not box stores) owners to stand alone dealers with significant investment in sales in optics, there were two manufacturers that came up again and again by all involved . Nightforce and Vortex. Companies like Sightron and Bushnell are of no current concern to them. They do realize that good manufactures like S&B, Swarovski, Zeiss exist and make excellent high products but don't currently have enough market share to concern them at this time. Mid level lines like Nikon and others are certainly being watched but I don't think Sightron will make enough inroads under their current product mix to take much market share. We sell what people ask for and we have strong affiliations with all optics companies we deal with. Phil.
 
P of PDent said:
OK I'll bite into this. To establish my affiliations I handle most rifle scope lines sold in Canada with a couple of exceptions like Sightron, Huskemaw and a couple others that don't come to mind. My first exposure to Sightron was several years ago to the entry level stuff that was no better or worse than anything else made in China at the time so we dropped the line when the then current distributor got out of Sightron. I am very reluctant to jump into new lines as evidenced as to why we were so long to get into Vortex (which is now a major line for us). When I saw Sightron making a come back into the mainstream in Canada I saw that Mystic P. and Peter Dobson were doing a good job already and since I have no personal involvement in Bench Rest or for that matter sell much to that style of shooting I decided to stay out. Clearly our main focus in scopes is medium to premium hunting, long rang/tactical and varmint hunting.
I am the only current Canadian member of the Leupold Dealer Council in the USA. We last met in the summer and will see each other just before Shot in Jan in Las Vegas. We discuss all manners of things either specificly involving Leupold products, developement, and competition. Within this dealer group of about 12 dealers from multiple store (not box stores) owners to stand alone dealers with significant investment in sales in optics, there were two manufacturers that came up again and again by all involved . Nightforce and Vortex. Companies like Sightron and Bushnell are of no current concern to them. They do realize that good manufactures like S&B, Swarovski, Zeiss exist and make excellent high products but don't currently have enough market share to concern them at this time. Mid level lines like Nikon and others are certainly being watched but I don't think Sightron will make enough inroads under their current product mix to take much market share. We sell what people ask for and we have strong affiliations with all optics companies we deal with. Phil.
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That said, due to your highly successful business model you could bring in Sightron, or Celestron or Huskemaw and still do well with it. FS
 
Shibby! said:
Wise man here.

1) Offering a cheap(er) product is detrimental to "branding". You'll never get away from those comparing a diamond back Vortex to a Razor.. Nightforce wouldn't be an "elite" brand if it had a 500$ scope. It's why people buy NF over the Razor even though most reviews say the Razor has better glass, just as good build, FFP, and a great zero stop, all for $100 more than a NF NSX. But vortex has to contend with their low end optics "reputation".

2) People pay for the brand name and appeal. Some know they over-pay, others don't. Why do people put rediculous Oakley stickers on their vehicles? Or Apple stickers? They have bought into the brand. It markets itself. People feel increased value if they pay more. They also consider their product to be better because THEY bought it. (in my case, Razor, haha)

I've said on here numerous times, the NSX NF is a good scope, but not $2200 scope. It's just a bit of a void in the market and they are fully taking advantage of it. If it was a zero stop, robust build, good glass for 1600-1800, then yea. Great buy. They make you pony up 400$ for zero stop and 56mm though and at that price range, their glass is starting to suffer.

I fully expected Sightron's S-trac to take advantage of this market. Offer just what I listed. $1500-1600, optional FFP, robust build, and a good zero stop and dominate the NSX scope line. It's a big hole in the market not being chased after by many companies. I don;t consider Elite's because they make #### scopes. (har har)
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The stac line has none of the features you mention and fills no niche in the market, it sure as hell won't compete against nightforce. It's their attempt to break into the tacticool market and perhaps win the hearts and minds of x-pst owners.
 
P of PDent said:
OK I'll bite into this. To establish my affiliations I handle most rifle scope lines sold in Canada with a couple of exceptions like Sightron, Huskemaw and a couple others that don't come to mind. My first exposure to Sightron was several years ago to the entry level stuff that was no better or worse than anything else made in China at the time so we dropped the line when the then current distributor got out of Sightron. I am very reluctant to jump into new lines as evidenced as to why we were so long to get into Vortex (which is now a major line for us). When I saw Sightron making a come back into the mainstream in Canada I saw that Mystic P. and Peter Dobson were doing a good job already and since I have no personal involvement in Bench Rest or for that matter sell much to that style of shooting I decided to stay out. Clearly our main focus in scopes is medium to premium hunting, long rang/tactical and varmint hunting.
I am the only current Canadian member of the Leupold Dealer Council in the USA. We last met in the summer and will see each other just before Shot in Jan in Las Vegas. We discuss all manners of things either specificly involving Leupold products, developement, and competition. Within this dealer group of about 12 dealers from multiple store (not box stores) owners to stand alone dealers with significant investment in sales in optics, there were two manufacturers that came up again and again by all involved . Nightforce and Vortex. Companies like Sightron and Bushnell are of no current concern to them. They do realize that good manufactures like S&B, Swarovski, Zeiss exist and make excellent high products but don't currently have enough market share to concern them at this time. Mid level lines like Nikon and others are certainly being watched but I don't think Sightron will make enough inroads under their current product mix to take much market share. We sell what people ask for and we have strong affiliations with all optics companies we deal with. Phil.
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You re also doing a service by offering products such as Bushnell, vortex and leupold which can easily be warrantied domestically when they break.
 
Fassteel said:
That said, due to your highly successful business model you could bring in Sightron, or Celestron or Huskemaw and still do well with it. FS
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Greg, no question that these are all marketable products and we could do well with them, with the caveat being lack of shelf space and often pulling sales away from something else. There was no question that when Vortex hit the shelf some other product lines suffered somewhat so wer'e alway trying to balance product mix with ultimate sales at the end of the day. Phil.
 
Mystic Precision said:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...wer-priced-quot-SHV-Nightforce-scope-unveiled

Well, here is the answer to the OP's question....

Apparently, the price points ARE moving...

Jerry
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Actually, it's not at all the answer to his question.
AndrewNS said:
... what do you think the chances are that the amazing product offerings from Sightron that are being compared to other brands that cost double or even close to triple the money, will force those other big brands to lower their prices to remain competitive?
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What has happened is what I said in post #62. They're developing a cheaper line to compete, like Zeiss did with the Conquest.
 
Introducing a new lower priced line is not really moving the price point down....the existing lines are the same price.
Just another example of a high end manufacturer trying to get a bigger piece of the pie offering lower quality at a lower price. Even Zeiss has stooped to the lowest of the low and have a line of Binoculars made in China now....
 
REALLY :)

so by your description, NF is dumming down their product. Cheapening the internals and components to make a price point. WOW, talk about eroding their branding.

Sort of like Lotus putting in Isuzu engines... that went well for them.

NO, they are simply understanding that their side focus products which once were priced well against Leupold, don't fit into the present market place.

They are just bringing their product inline price wise. I bet there is precious little difference in how they put this scope together... that is if they have any smarts and want to ensure, they don't develop the Bushnell syndrome.

Wonder when these will be offshored... if they aren't already.

Jerry
 
Hitzy said:
Introducing a new lower priced line is not really moving the price point down....the existing lines are the same price.
Just another example of a high end manufacturer trying to get a bigger piece of the pie offering lower quality at a lower price. Even Zeiss has stooped to the lowest of the low and have a line of Binoculars made in China now....
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How long before those higher priced lines get phased out?

We live in a crazy time where price is driven to such ridiculous levels that no one can stand on quality alone. When we see China outsourcing to other countries, you know things are silly.

And again, there are strong feelings that China is the land of substandard things. That story is long out of date.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
REALLY :)

so by your description, NF is dumming down their product. Cheapening the internals and components to make a price point. WOW, talk about eroding their branding.

Sort of like Lotus putting in Isuzu engines... that went well for them.

NO, they are simply understanding that their side focus products which once were priced well against Leupold, don't fit into the present market place.

They are just bringing their product inline price wise. I bet there is precious little difference in how they put this scope together... that is if they have any smarts and want to ensure, they don't develop the Bushnell syndrome.

Wonder when these will be offshored... if they aren't already.

Jerry
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say, sorry. You think Sightron has driven the prices of Nightforce down and this is just a re-labeled NXS? Not likely. It's a lesser quality Nightforce, hence the lower price, to compete with lesser quality scopes, like the Sightron.
 
Mystic Precision said:
How long before those higher priced lines get phased out?

We live in a crazy time where price is driven to such ridiculous levels that no one can stand on quality alone. When we see China outsourcing to other countries, you know things are silly.

And again, there are strong feelings that China is the land of substandard things. That story is long out of date.

Jerry
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Oh I definately agree that it will hurt the brand when they start pumping out cheaper lower quality optics. I think its a terrible move for the most part. The NS might not be too bad as long as its still made in Japan. They can produce quality optics from $250 to $2500 and higher and get very few complaints.
China still make junk optics...if you know of a decent line made in China that is on par with Japanese or US made optics feel free to point us in that direction. The best I've seen so far is the new Bushnell Legend line....and while they get decent reviews, I own one, and it is crap even compared to the old Philippines Legends.
 
bearkilr said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, sorry. You think Sightron has driven the prices of Nightforce down and this is just a re-labeled NXS? Not likely. It's a lesser quality Nightforce, hence the lower price, to compete with lesser quality scopes, like the Sightron.
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I own sightron S111 and nightforce scopes.....and sightron is not worthy of being on the same boat!!! And never will be my friend,This isnt even debatable...you are spreading false info to make money and selling a peice of #### product compared to nightforce! Plz grow up
 
quentin wipf said:
I own sightron S111 and nightforce scopes.....and sightron is not worthy of being on the same boat!!! And never will be my friend,This isnt even debatable...you are spreading false info to make money and selling a peice of #### product compared to nightforce! Plz grow up
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Well, I'm not, but I know who you meant. ;)

Maybe when they start adding hyphens to their power range markings, people will take them a little more seriously.

1474590_10152104315818552_1094356078_n.jpg
 
Mystic Precision said:
REALLY :)

so by your description, NF is dumming down their product. Cheapening the internals and components to make a price point. WOW, talk about eroding their branding.

Sort of like Lotus putting in Isuzu engines... that went well for them.

Jerry
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I think this is a big mistake by NF, but who am I to say which direction they take.

"About the only complaint we hear about our scopes is they aren't cheap enough"

Is that seriously on their page? I refuse to confirm. That is likely the worse bit of marketing I've seen... ever.

Don't most (all?) Lotus' use supercharged Toyota motors now?
 
Hitzy said:
Oh I definately agree that it will hurt the brand when they start pumping out cheaper lower quality optics. I think its a terrible move for the most part. The NS might not be too bad as long as its still made in Japan. They can produce quality optics from $250 to $2500 and higher and get very few complaints.
China still make junk optics...if you know of a decent line made in China that is on par with Japanese or US made optics feel free to point us in that direction. The best I've seen so far is the new Bushnell Legend line....and while they get decent reviews, I own one, and it is crap even compared to the old Philippines Legends.
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It is likely already buried into product for final assembly in Japan and US and Europe. how many companies use 1 source for all items? You do realise that "made in anywhere" in the NA market has everything to with content vs actual country of origin/manf? And the box and instructions and scope caps count as domestic content if that is where they are sourced.

why was there such a booming number of Chinese Leupold MkIV knock offs? Didn't the knobs fit on real Leupolds?

CNC machines really don't care where they are set up and China leads the world in buzzing up alum afaik.

Jerry
 
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