Win 1892 no serial #

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sedwards

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I have found and purchased a strange model 92 with to 24" bbl in 44 cal. "NO SERIAL #"
Before anyone says they don't exist and the metal is filed or worn gone or it was restored improperly "the answer is none of the above". It does not have any serial number stamped on the rifle 50 guys have all inspected it and agree, Has not been restored, I believe the owner passed away a few weeks ago and I was able to obtain the rifle, He had purchased this rifle in Hope BC and a Gentleman used it on the trap lines in BC up to the Yukon I was told. the metal was cleaned a bit where the serial # should be last week because the dealer refused to believe it had no serial #.
They finally shrugged there shoulders and called in to do the transfer and got a new one assigned. Any pointers as to the age? Obviously prior to 33. Or maybe someone has seen this before on the 92's????? I know the 94's and just about everyother win model had some serial number skipping but I was told the 92's 'ALL HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER AND IF IT DOESN"T THEN SOMEONE REMOVED IT?" But here I am asking???? If this Rifle could talk??? It's seen some wild stuff in it's day, the lever has a weird curve in the middle which has no impact signs. I know some guys carried them in the old days with index and ring finger on the inside of the leverwith the middle finger on the bottom which with years of carrying on a trap line may some what expain this as well, but the curve looks legit and oddly simetrical with the bend exactly apexing exactly n the middle right down to the mm.

Any comments or help is appreciated. ( no checkering or fancy stuff, thisis the standard model)
 
The cfo thinks 1 of my guns has no serial number on it.. I told them 4 times this is the number... please add it to the cert.. they give me a blah blah blah we do it.. call 3 months later still not done its been 3 years.. still not fixed.. so I got a gun with a serial number.. but.. it doesnt have one.. I need a sticker that they never sent put on it.. i was like what you dumb or something this is the number :p

we will send it to our cert correction department sir.. So right now i have a registered gun.. with a cert thats blank...
 
I have a very nice 1886 Winchester with no serial number. From looking at it, you would think that there never was one on it, but a few years ago, I mixed up a batch of solution used to raise removed serial numbers, that I got from an old book on firearms forensics. Sure enough, there it was, showing up as darker metal, and very legible. It only stays visible for a half hour or so, then fades away, but I did get a picture of it.
 
I think the only way a Winchester receiver could have left the factory without a serial number was if an employee sneaked it out. I have seen a couple like tjsudbury describes and you would swear there never was one but if you measured two actions with calipers you can tell one has had material removed.
 
If you check records winchester had huge gaps over the years that went out the door without serial #'s. The only model where it's not noted is the model 1892.
I callipered it with my other 92's of 1920/30's vintage and cant find any metal missing compared to those rifles.

The chemical deal can be done various ways too, as I also collect coins and use light HCL to acid date old coins with the date worn off, but this only works if the # or letters were not stamped flush and were once raised print

Anyways thanks for your help guys. The Wyoming Winchester Museum will get fresh pics and I'll let them determine the status..
 
I sold a registered .38-55 Winchester M94 manufactured sometime before 1924 earlier this year with no serial number. Had no problems with the CFC, I assume they have come across this before.
 
If you take off the front wood, there should be a number stamped on the barrel next to the action, this normally gives the year of manuf. The one you have may have been a salesman sample or one of the miriad that were produced for retail stores that did not want serial numbers on them.

According to the book, they used up many parts that were "left over" when the '92 rifles were not made anymore (1931) I had a '53 with a 92 barrel that was one of these cleanup rifles.
 
tjsudbury said:
I have a very nice 1886 Winchester with no serial number. From looking at it, you would think that there never was one on it, but a few years ago, I mixed up a batch of solution used to raise removed serial numbers, that I got from an old book on firearms forensics. Sure enough, there it was, showing up as darker metal, and very legible. It only stays visible for a half hour or so, then fades away, but I did get a picture of it.
Click to expand...

Would that be a 40-65 by any chance? I saw a beaut several years ago southeast of Ottawa that didn't have a serial number.
 
Very Very good question? It only says 44 WCF on the top of the bbl???????
Stupid question, how would I identify this as I just assumed it was a 44-40.
 
Mike Webb said:
I think the only way a Winchester receiver could have left the factory without a serial number was if an employee sneaked it out. I have seen a couple like tjsudbury describes and you would swear there never was one but if you measured two actions with calipers you can tell one has had material removed.
Click to expand...

Incorrect, that.

Lots of ways that it could have got out without a number.

A replacement receiver that had been pulled from the storage bins and rushed out, is one way. The simple explanation that this one was missed, is quite possible as well. Worth keeping in mind that serial numbers were not the be-all to end-all, from the Company's perspective. They did not have the BATF (or whoever) waiting to swoop in and check their books and fine them for any missed numbers, so it was primarily for Company record keeping.
Winchester production is pretty interesting, in that they would tool up and do a run of parts, then store them for later use, while they tooled up the shops for running other models. Lots of opportunities for the action to have missed the stop for a serial number, without any foul play involved.

It's worth reading about! If you are interested, anyway.
I have Campbell's books on the single Shot, as well as a more general Winchester History book that detail some of the Contracting processes that were used to produce the products.

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
Incorrect, that.

Lots of ways that it could have got out without a number.

A replacement receiver that had been pulled from the storage bins and rushed out, is one way.
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It is possible, but in the case of the Model 1892/92, it seems implausible to me. The receiver was serialized in the Polishing Room before assembly. Only after leaving the Polishing Room, did the receivers go into any type of 'bin'. I'm not even sure they would go into a bin, because they would have very easily picked up dings. I think it more likely that they went into trays, which would then go into racks. It is always possible that in the Polishing Room, a receiver was missed and put into a tray, though. It would have been picked up, however, when it was entered into the Warehouse, were each rifle was individually logged in and out.
 
Win 38-55 said:
It is possible, but in the case of the Model 1892/92, it seems implausible to me. The receiver was serialized in the Polishing Room before assembly. Only after leaving the Polishing Room, did the receivers go into any type of 'bin'. I'm not even sure they would go into a bin, because they would have very easily picked up dings. I think it more likely that they went into trays, which would then go into racks. It is always possible that in the Polishing Room, a receiver was missed and put into a tray, though. It would have been picked up, however, when it was entered into the Warehouse, were each rifle was individually logged in and out.
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I tend to agree. All the info you receive in a Winchester letter starts with a serial number. If the Winchester employee recording the info didn't see a serial number I don't think the gun would go out the door. Just my opinion.
 
Dunno.

A lot of the books I have read through, have mentioned some of the strange goings on, that tied in with the end of model productions, and the use of the spares stock to build special orders, or to fill orders.

I'm willing to say that there are as good odds as any, that it went out the front door, rather than that it went out the back. Whether it was a Salesman's sample, or a plain "Private Label" gun, or the remnants of the parts from the back corners of the stores being put to use, it could be anything.

I agree with the comment about the "factory letter' except that by default, the serial number is only traceable to the records, if there is a serial number recorded. As a case in point, during the same time frame, Stevens made thousands of firearms that did not have any practical records to give them dates, and up until very recently, the likes of Cooey and others were not even putting batch numbers on their products, let alone serial numbers.

There are a bunch of Win 1885's around that date to the wrong era's, if one compares features to 'known' manufacturing time frames, but which, by all examinations, appear to be original and complete as leaving the plant. These pretty much just serve to point out that it was not always just perfect smooth running, in that world.

If you want to believe it went out in someone's lunch bag, OK. But I think it wrong to think that is the only way it could have left the factory without a serial number.
Unless we can find some provenance one way or another, we are stuck guessing.

Cheers
Trev
 
Lots of weird stuff went on in Winchester in those days.

In Madris BIG book of Winchesters there's a nice pic of a 1886 Winchester rifle in .33wcf serial numbered 2 yrs before it was supposed to have been introduced:cool:
 
They made a million 92's plus millions of other models over half a century. There's going to be anomaly's over this period and this probably one of them. It left the plant without numbers for a reason and those that know are long gone now. Maybe it was issued to a special ops. covert unit that didn't want there existence known by tracing the gun serial #'s if captured ;)
A few years ago it took me 6 months to complete a transfer of a 92 because there was another one with the same serial number.
My personal opinion on situations like this, is I find that if the Cody records can't comfirm the configuration of a gun it is usually not considered legit to the die hard collectors.
 
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