Win 94 stock finish plus Loading issue continues Post 7

[ipscgraz]

One of my wife's friends came to the conclusion that she wanted to learn to shoot. After a few range trips she was hooked and now has her PAL. I eventually found her a used Win 94 at a site sponsor; she liked it and it was comfortable for her to hold and shoot, so I helped her buy it.

This rifle is difficult to load; the first round goes in easily, and the second one is more difficult, with the third sometimes being almost impossible. Not inserting a round all the way through the loading gate, and pushing it in with the nose of the next round allows much easier loading, but this didn't seem right. A quick search shows that this is a common issue...anyone have any information that might clarify??

I made a few dummy rounds and was trying to see what I could find and came to a point where I could not insert a 2nd round into the mag tube, at all. I pulled the mag tube cap and ran a cleaning rod down the tube; no obstructions or deformation.


Now the next self induced problem: this used rifle had some pitting on the receiver. A light buff with fine steel wool got rid of most of it and I figured cold bluing would touch it up. Degreasing with acetone, I discovered that the finish on the forestock came off readily with the acetone...looks like the factory finish was sprayed onto the wood and was not actually soaked into the wood like a stain would be. And of course I discovered this too late to save the finish; I now have someone else's gun that I need to refinish.

Does anyone have an idea what Winchester used in the 70's as a quick finish? Any suggestions or help?

 

[450yukon]

It was probably a tinted lacquer spray that was applied cheaply. As with most manufacturers from the 60’s forward applying a stain, then drying and applying finish was too much labour.
It’s surprising what lie’s beneath a Rem, Winchester, Browning etc spray finish.

As to the loading issue, when you took the msg cap off, how far did the spring extent? Probably too much compression I’m thinking.

 

[Butcherbill]

It comes off easy I find, I refinished one for a friend. A 1975 manufactur, I stripped off the old finish and gave it a bunch of coats of blo and 2 coats of wax I buffed out by hand. Night and day difference in look and feel, as well as tone of the natural wood in different light.

 

[9.3mauser]

Not inserting a round all the way through the loading gate, and pushing it in with the nose of the next round allows much easier loading, but this didn't seem right.

This is standard operating procedure for any 94 that I've handled. It's a design flaw, imo, but that's the easiest way to deal with it.

I refinished my brother's '72 vintage rifle many years ( decades!) ago, when the factory finish started to peel. It came out very blonde, which is when I realized the wood is birch, not walnut. I've thought that maybe a walnut stain might help, but I've been reluctant to experiment again.

 

[Canuck65]

Quote: "Not inserting a round all the way through the loading gate, and pushing it in with the nose of the next round allows much easier loading, but this didn't seem right."

Actually, it is right - that's the easiest way to load the rifle, and the way people have been doing it for over a century.

Quote: "Does anyone have an idea what Winchester used in the 70's as a quick finish?"

Stain and sprayed lacquer. Since it's already coming off, I'd finish the job with a quality stripper, then stain it a shade darker and rub in a nice Tung Oil. I've done a few 70s/80s 94s like this and they turned out very nice.

 

[ipscgraz]

Once again, the CGN hive knowledge does not disappoint. Thanks to all who responded.

 

[ipscgraz]

I managed to get this rifle together (there's a lot of parts in there!) and it cycles normally. I tried to load some dummy rounds (bullet and case, no powder or primer) using the method already discussed, which is start round # 1, then use # 2 to push #1 in then # 3 to push # 2 in, etc.

The first round loads normally. However, I can not get round # 2 fully into the mag tube, with maybe a half inch of brass still outside of the loading gate. Not only will it not fully enter the mag tube, the second round gets stuck and will NOT come out unless I use the rim of a third round to drag # 2 back out of the loading gate. This has been a problem since the rifle was bought (used).

If I remove the mag tube cap, mag spring and follower, it loads like a dream. With the spring and follower sitting in the mag tube but no mag plug at the front end, it loads normally. But as soon as I secure the spring inside the mag tube using a toothpick, with maybe 8 inches of spring showing, I return to round # 2 locking up in the loading gate.

I see no obstruction or deformation through out the length of the tube; running a cleaning rod with oversize brush through the mag tube shows no irregularities. If I drop the follower into the mag tube it falls all the way to the fwd end of the mag tube and falls freely out of the mag tube if I tilt the rifle down.

I can't see this being an incorrect length mag spring.


Has anyone else encountered anything like this???

 

[gunrunner100]

The Post 64 94 has a few gremlins, notably the link and the loading gate, each of which could give issues as the OP has indicated.

 

[450yukon]

When you take the mag cap off, how far does the spring extend past the tube? 6” should be sufficient, since you have no issue loading it with spring removed I still think this could be the problem.
Pull the mag cap, with spring relaxed push 6” of the spring in and hold it there while trying to feed cartridge’s. See if that works.

 

[sean69]

The first round loads normally. However, I can not get round # 2 fully into the mag tube, with maybe a half inch of brass still outside of the loading gate. Not only will it not fully enter the mag tube, the second round gets stuck and will NOT come out unless I use the rim of a third round to drag # 2 back out of the loading gate. This has been a problem since the rifle was bought (used).

Remove the loading gate - it could have a burr preventing withdrawing the round (they were designed to let cartridges in, not out) You might also be able to see what is not happening, The cartridge lifter is caliber specific, but I don't know if that can cause the issues you are having. Not sure if you can install the bullet guides wrong either.

If it loads fine without the follower and spring chances are the guts are fine. (can you withdraw the second cartridge without the spring and follower?)

If I remove the mag tube cap, mag spring and follower, it loads like a dream. With the spring and follower sitting in the mag tube but no mag plug at the front end, it loads normally. But as soon as I secure the spring inside the mag tube using a toothpick, with maybe 8 inches of spring showing, I return to round # 2 locking up in the loading gate.

The only long shot I can think might be happening is you are getting rimlock (depending on caliber). The mag tube sits in a little recess in the receiver - if the tube is too short you can get a little gap between the end of the mag tube and the bottom of the recess.
Like I said a long shot - but the rim could be dropping into that recess.....

I can't see this being an incorrect length mag spring.

How long is the mag tube and how long is the spring?

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

Subscribed out of morbid curiosity.

This is a weird business. Never heard of an issue like this. Excellent troubleshooting - the fact that everything is Puppies and Sunshine with the end cap off means that spring tension may be playing some kind of role...

 

[tiriaq]

Check the transition from the receiver to the magazine tube. Any burrs, etc.?

 

[ipscgraz]

First off, thanks to all for taking the time to assist.

This problem showed after the rifle was bought and before I started digging into it. When this problem showed I posted a similar question here on CGN; one of the replies was to suggest that the loading gate may have been the culprit. I removed the LG but I didn't see any burss. I polished the angular rib (on the inside) with a piece of 600 grit and touched up the bluing, with no change.

The at-rest length of the spring is 30 inches. With the follower and spring in the mag tube, I have about 10 inches of spring outside the tube (with no compression on the spring.)


The mag tube is 1/4 inch shorter than the barrel, with the hole for the mag plug retaining screw aligned.

 

[Canuck65]

I managed to get this rifle together (there's a lot of parts in there!) and it cycles normally. I tried to load some dummy rounds (bullet and case, no powder or primer) using the method already discussed, which is start round # 1, then use # 2 to push #1 in then # 3 to push # 2 in, etc.

The first round loads normally. However, I can not get round # 2 fully into the mag tube, with maybe a half inch of brass still outside of the loading gate. Not only will it not fully enter the mag tube, the second round gets stuck and will NOT come out unless I use the rim of a third round to drag # 2 back out of the loading gate. This has been a problem since the rifle was bought (used).

If I remove the mag tube cap, mag spring and follower, it loads like a dream. With the spring and follower sitting in the mag tube but no mag plug at the front end, it loads normally. But as soon as I secure the spring inside the mag tube using a toothpick, with maybe 8 inches of spring showing, I return to round # 2 locking up in the loading gate.

I see no obstruction or deformation through out the length of the tube; running a cleaning rod with oversize brush through the mag tube shows no irregularities. If I drop the follower into the mag tube it falls all the way to the fwd end of the mag tube and falls freely out of the mag tube if I tilt the rifle down.

I can't see this being an incorrect length mag spring.


Has anyone else encountered anything like this???

I have had this happen to me - what caused it was the mag tube not being fully seated back against the receiver - somehow this caused the follower to bind. I had to replace the cross pin / screw and it was good to go again. It was weird - under recoil, the mag tube would move forward bit by bit until it failed. It was like a 64th of an inch (maybe less) and it wouldn't load properly anymore.

This doesn't sound like the same problem you're having, but it's similar, so maybe something to check anyway.

You might also want to look to see if you have a burr or something in the tube or on the follower. Or maybe the spring is getting tangled up in itself - seems unlikely though. I'd give it a good scrub and a light oiling either way.

Good luck

 

[ipscgraz]

I have had this happen to me - what caused it was the mag tube not being fully seated back against the receiver - somehow this caused the follower to bind. I had to replace the cross pin / screw and it was good to go again. It was weird - under recoil, the mag tube would move forward bit by bit until it failed. It was like a 64th of an inch (maybe less) and it wouldn't load properly anymore.

This doesn't sound like the same problem you're having, but it's similar, so maybe something to check anyway.

You might also want to look to see if you have a burr or something in the tube or on the follower. Or maybe the spring is getting tangled up in itself - seems unlikely though. I'd give it a good scrub and a light oiling either way.

Good luck

I took a steel clothes hangar, cut the hook off, and straightened it. I added a very short 80 degree bend at one end and lowered it into the tube. I could not feel any slight gap between the receiver and tube.


I guess my next step will be to partially disassemble again enough to get a look at the tube-receiver relationship. (but first, breakfast!)

 

[tiriaq]

The front of the receiver is counterbored, and the tube fits into this. If there is a gap, perhaps cartridge rims are getting caught, hanging up instead of entering the tube.

 

[ipscgraz]

OK; I got the lever and other parts out so I could get a look into the front of the receiver from the action end. Can't see much.

I took an empty piece of brass and slowly slid it into the magazine tube, backwards (rim first) from the receiver end; I thought I could feel a little bit of a gap between the receiver and tube.

I loosened off the mag tube cap screw and the barrel band screw a bit and tapped the mag tube toward the receiver using a small hammer and a block of wood. Not much movement, if any.

Reassemble. And now the 2nd round goes further into the mag tube before it stops moving.


The woman who owns this rifle also confirms that this problem was with factory ammo, so my reloads are off the hook.


The dogs are demanding their daily constitutional so back in an hour or so.

 

[sean69]

I took a steel clothes hangar, cut the hook off, and straightened it. I added a very short 80 degree bend at one end and lowered it into the tube. I could not feel any slight gap between the receiver and tube.
I guess my next step will be to partially disassemble again enough to get a look at the tube-receiver relationship. (but first, breakfast!)

Yes, but can you move the tube at all when assembled? If you can the spring may be pushing the tube forward enough to leave a gap. Like I said it's a long shot but possible - though it does not explain why you could initially get almost 3 cartridges in there and now only 1 and a bit.

You should actually be able to see the end of the tube from the top - action open, push the follower forward a bit with a pencil or whatever - if there is a gap you will be able to see it. and whether it is large enough to catch a rim....

 

[ipscgraz]

With the barrel band screws loose but still installed, I can wiggle the tube slightly. With the mag plug and screw in place, there is no movement at all.

I thought of rotating the mag tube 180 degrees but the two holes for the mag plug screw are different sizes.

Anyway, other duties call and I will dig into this again on Friday.


I have a favour to ask...those of you with Model 94 winchesters: Does your loading gate angle look like this (internet photo)

More reading tells me that the rib on the back of the loading gate is there to push the already loaded rounds forward a touch. I am wondering if the rib I have on this LG is too "deep" and preventing the loading gate from flexing inward enough to allow the insertion of the next round. I already have the wife's friend's rifle in the safe but that internal rib could be touching the carrier/shell lifter.

 

[Dark Alley Dan]

I suppose there's one way to find out. WGP will mail you one if you send 'em some cash.

That being said, if this was a manufacturing error of this magnitude, surely someone who owned this rifle before would have unbuggered it by now. And I'm loathe to suggest fixing a problem by throwing money at it.