Winchester vs Ruger vs Remington

[Why not?]

I have seen the 270 cleanly take moose no problem., its's a fool who shoots at a grizzly with one unless he is an amazing shot.
It will do the job, but will not stop an enraged bear.
Seen it 1st hand

I have shot more than a few bears, and have personal knowledge of a 338 failing to stop an enraged grizzly, and a 270 finishing the job.

No one should be shooting any animal, unless they are fully capable of putting the first shot in the right spot.

At the risk of starting another bear defense discussion, the 270 Win is more than enough gun for grizzly, especially with the bullets and loads available today.

Ted

 

[rgv]

Certainly common enough it's not big news, and it doesn't have to be up here. I'll stick with one piece bolts, or at the very least welded or threaded, for rifles used in the field. Just got back from Africa, took a Ruger.

Here's a few mins' worth of google/copy/paste, I'm good with my Ruger thanks. Tried both, have owned a half dozen or more 700's, a few things moved me away from them, at the forefront, brazed bolt construction.

I just don't like Remingtons, push feed, soldered/brazed together, multi-piece bolt, and made for cheap production over all other attributes. It's the Ford Taurus of bolt actions. Works, but there are much, much better choices for hunting. The bolt handles also have a nasty habit of breaking their solder on extremely cold days and falling off the gun, and the extractor is a joke. I've built long range rigs on them, and they are very easy to work on, and are very accurate. Fine for a bench gun, but I don't like them for the field.

While i share your preference for Model 70's and 77's, I strongly disagree that either is "much, much better choice for hunting", as you term them.

As much as I love my pre-64 Model 70's, if there is a proven action in the hunting, battle, and target fields, it is a Remington 700.

I would have to ask you how many failures you have personally witnessed or experienced with either a push feed action, a three piece bolt, or a spring clip recessed extractor?

The way you describe it, "common enough it's not big news", "nasty habit of breaking their solder on extremely cold days and falling off the gun", "Up here, not an uncommon occurrence", , someone unfamiliar with either the strength of silver solder, or real cold, would think that anyone with a Remington should immediatley trade in their disaster-in-waiting for a real gun, like a Ruger 77, which is actually inferior to the only really outright reliable and safe bolt-gun, the 98 Mauser.

 

[Toomanyguns]

What about Parker Hale vs. BSA vs. Husqvarna?

 

[c0ntract]

This is what Remington offers now in quality, they said ship it to them they MIGHT consider warranty.
This rifle was opened INSIDE the class room and put back away and returned to his car on a rainy day. It never saw direct rain.

M.

Wow that is shocking! I was going to ask if it was a notorious 770 but I can clearly see its stamped as a 700. Remington has changed directions a bit and has been trying to meet demands from their distributors (Walmart) to offer lower cost rifles in the US... lower cost in walmart terms means cheap as dirt so I imagine their production might be affected. I am sure not all new rifles are crap like that, I have seen a few 770's that look 100X better than that.

As for Ruger, they are a top notch rifle and the new ones are amazing quality. Ruger has been under new management for the last few years and has invested a lot in new production methods including CNC equipment. As a result the new products are 10X better than the ones 10 years ago. Compare the old mini 14 to a 2010 and its night and day. Also they have great customer service.

Savage has gotten a bad rap in this thread, but their quality has been improving over the last 20 years. As for the modern savage products they are cheap but their accuracy is very impressive for the $. Also I personally like the accu trigger, I think its a very slick trigger and probably the best of all three manufacturers listed by the OP. I have not seen the accu-stock yet but I have read good reviews on the edge series. Also if the quality of the furniture is not up to your liking you could always get a custom made stock for it.

I have always had a fondness for Winchester because it was my first .308 my father gave me a model 70 featherweight when I was 17 and I love it. It stood up to years of abuse and its still ticking.

I think you should test a few out before you buy, see what one feels the best to you. I would also look at the browning X-bolt, it is around the same price point and I have always loved their products, I find the quality and fit and finish is amazing.

 

[X-fan]

There's some things the M700 is great for, and Dennis has built an M700 long range rig for me too so as I mentioned the action has some merits to me, but overall I just don't see much use for actions with brazed together parts and push feed in the hunting field. There's just plain better options. Certainly it works, but when you can get a Ruger, that has utterly a near-zero chance of breaking a bolt handle or extractor, and has a slicker action, the choice is clear to me. Everything, from the floorplate to the bolt handle, is just plain built better on a Model 77, for a hunter. Africa, for instance, has different standards for rifles, and you just plain do not see Remingtons going after dangerous game, for good reason.

You have good points, and for sure, the internet's a goofy place full of some pretty dumb sh1t, but the fact stands, find a Ruger M77 the bolt handle has broken off of, overload's in its past or not. If I'm building a straight up target rig, I still would use one, they're accurate and easy to work with. For field conditions, I just see no reason not to select a better alternative however.

I am well aware of the "African" hunting standard, but once again I believe this is completely over sold.
As tough as African hunting is it is nothing when compared to combat conditions. The US military would have abandoned the Rem 700 30 years ago if it was the poor performer African hunters say it to be.

I believe the real reason the Rem 700 is so unpopular in Africa is because it represents Americana.....Not that I like Americana.

I will admit I have replaced the bottom metal on my big bore Rem 700s, not because of failures but for looks and more room in the trigger guard. I did have a floor plate crack at the front guard screw attachment point, but this was as a result of a stock related issue (one more reason not to own a Bell and Carlson stock).

30 seconds with a tig welder would remove any bolt handle concerns, but 30 years of hard hunting have made me fairly confident in my gear.
I am not the least bit concerned.
The handle is silver soldered BTW...Not brazed...There is a world of strength difference there. The bolt head is of no concern whatsoever.

Manufacturing flaws occur and I don't trust anybody's rifle (I look over every new rifle) however I find the Remington design very well balanced in terms of strength and weight and the function has never let me down. I also find the core components of the Rem 700 very satisfactory.

Anyway, we all make our choices and I respect that you choose something different.

Cheers.

 

[Huntin' Gun]

I own 2 rem 700's. I've had each one out in colder than 30 below. My bolt handles are still very firmly attached. I've had them apart several times, and I've always managed to get the magazine boxes back in properly without too much difficulty. I've adjusted the triggers on them too. With my SPS with X-mark Pro trigger, when I was testing it at the range after adjustment, it did fire when I released the safety. So I quickly took it apart and adjusted it again. Now it's perfectly safe. I've had it out many times since, and it is just fine. They each have their pet loads, and with those loads each will shoot MOA or better.
I used to own a Ruger M77 tang safety in 7 Rem Mag. I bought it used, and the trigger was already nicely adjusted. I could never get it to shoot better than 1.75 MOA. EVER! And those were the best groups, not the average. Sold it, and will likely never own another Ruger. Just too scared to put my money on that kind of a gamble.
I own a Husqvarna 1640 in 30-06. It is a nice, solid gun. Bought it used off the EE last October. I reblued the barrel since it was more rusty than I was informed, and I've re-done the trigger. Found a couple pet loads that will shoot 1.25 MOA or better. Shot 2 deer with it last November. When I think of a solidly reliable hunting rifle, that's what I think of.
I hunted with my Dad's post 64 model 70 .270 as a kid, and until I bought my own gun. Never let me down, was very accurate, and accounted for more deer than I can recall off the top of my head.
Some people really like Rugers. Maybe the newer Hawkeyes are better, but...
Don't let the internet scare you off rem 700's. There's nothing wrong with them.
I also own a Tikka. If you want to KNOW your gun will be VERY accurate out of the box, get a Tikka. If you don't like plastic stocks, then get a Tikka Hunter [that's what I've got].
Really, you just need to handle as many as you can, and pick one. The only way you'll really make a mistake is if you buy a Rem 770, or a newer Mossberg. Steer clear from those and you'll do just fine.

 

[Toomanyguns]

I also question why police departments throughout North America and the US military use Remington 700s if the bolt handles "fall off"?

If Ruger is that much better a rifle why hasn't the Military adopted it? Or police departments? You know the guys whose life may well depend on the rifle functioning?


I encourage everyone to do research on the Union Metallic Cartridge Company and Remington Arms. Start back in the early 1900's. Pay close attention to the family names of corproate directors, mergers, acquisitions, and especially the political connections. A very interesting tangled web of who's who it be.

You will then clearly understand the place that Remington has in military and law enforcement.

It is all about those who profit.

 

[tikka#1]

"The US military would have abandoned the Rem 700 30 years ago if it was the poor performer African hunters say it to be."
If the US military abandoned unrealibale guns they would have abandoned the M16 after the first few years in vietnam,

 

[Toomanyguns]

Once again, it is all about profit for certain people. It has nothing to do with superior product.

Its a massive business around the world.

Great example tikka!

 

[Ardent]

No, never had a handle break off one of my own M700's, only a broken floorplate on my .270 at the trigger guard (didn't impress me). I do a lot of silver soldering myself, and brazing (I dabble in gunbuilding and smithing, for background see my scratch build double thread in gunsmithing), and that's no way to attach a bolt handle. Sure, it works, and I have overly strong opinions I'm sure too, but I'll take a one piece bolt any day and for good reason. I just see no reason to use a Remington (and I've tried, everything from a Sendero to standard .270/.30-06s, .375 RUM LSS, even a Titanium), as it offers zero advantage. It's not more accurate, and it's certainly not more durable. Push feed's not my kind of action, either. It's just as simple as this; they're built for economy. The are accurate, they are safe. As in my first post, they're the Ford Taurus of bolt actions, and much better guns are available.

A new Ruger Hawkeye (or M70 CRF), beside a new M700 BDL, makes things very, very clear to even a novice eye.

 

[X-fan]

Well I don't know about you Ardent, but I am definitely not opinionated!

 

[sgt.rock]

No, never had a handle break off one of my own M700's, only a broken floorplate on my .270 at the trigger guard (didn't impress me). I do a lot of silver soldering myself, and brazing (I dabble in gunbuilding and smithing, for background see my scratch build double thread in gunsmithing), and that's no way to attach a bolt handle. Sure, it works, and I have overly strong opinions I'm sure too, but I'll take a one piece bolt any day and for good reason. I just see no reason to use a Remington (and I've tried, everything from a Sendero to standard .270/.30-06s, .375 RUM LSS, even a Titanium), as it offers zero advantage. It's not more accurate, and it's certainly not more durable. Push feed's not my kind of action, either. It's just as simple as this; they're built for economy. The are accurate, they are safe. As in my first post, they're the Ford Taurus of bolt actions, and much better guns are available.

A new Ruger Hawkeye (or M70 CRF), beside a new M700 BDL, makes things very, very clear to even a novice eye.

^what he said (minus the novice gunsmithing and actually trying a sendero, but everything else)

 

[X-man]

There's some things the M700 is great for, and Dennis has built an M700 long range rig for me too so as I mentioned the action has some merits to me, but overall I just don't see much use for actions with brazed together parts and push feed in the hunting field. There's just plain better options. Certainly it works, but when you can get a Ruger, that has utterly a near-zero chance of breaking a bolt handle or extractor, and has a slicker action, the choice is clear to me. Everything, from the floorplate to the bolt handle, is just plain built better on a Model 77, for a hunter. Africa, for instance, has different standards for rifles, and you just plain do not see Remingtons going after dangerous game, for good reason.

You have good points, and for sure, the internet's a goofy place full of some pretty dumb sh1t, but the fact stands, find a Ruger M77 the bolt handle has broken off of, overload's in its past or not. If I'm building a straight up target rig, I still would use one, they're accurate and easy to work with. For field conditions, I just see no reason not to select a better alternative however.

I dunno Angus...I'm a hardcore Remington fan. That last 700 action I bought from you a while back was the basis for a custom tactical LTR style build. The end product shoots tiny, tiny groups and can agg in the .2's all day long.

In 20 years I've never had a single 700 bolt handle break on me or experience a failure to eject/extract and I'd pit Newfoundland & Labrador hunting/climatic conditions against BC or AB anyday. Living on the coast you can watch the damp Atlantic climate and salt air eat your car or truck. Remember, we've basically got three seasons, Summer, Winter and Misery. It is either raining, snowing or sleet for most of all three.

All kidding aside, my 700s have held up very well with a modicum of care. I will admit, however, that Remington 700 QC did slip in the late 90s and really hasn't rebounded to the same level. That said, I did pick up a new 700 LTR in .223 to play around with this summer. Fit and finish seem to be quite well done. I haven't shot it yet, so accuracy reports will have to wait, but I've yet to encounter a 700 that doesn't shoot 1 MOA or better right out of the box with quality ammo. I think I've got around 10 or so 700s sitting in the racks/safe right now. I'm sure I'll be adding more.

However, choosing a rifle is a very personal thing. Just because someone prefers Ruger or Winchester to Remington doesn't mean you have to automatically slag the other maker. You can throw Tikka, SAKO, Savage, CZ, etc...into the mix as well along with all the other makes.

I forget just how many 700s there are, somehwere on the order of 7 million IIRC? It is the best selling sporting rifle in history. Finding even a few dozen cases of these sorts of failures on the Internet should be taken with a grain of salt and not let the alleged problem become too "overblown."

Incidentally, I also like/own Rugers, Winchesters, older SAKOs and Tikkas. I can't warm up to the new "plastic" Tikkas however.