Wolverine's WK180-C

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ljones said:
Yes but also to be fair how many bolt rifles are restricted or prohibited. The WK108-C is a semi auto competing for space in the market to fill a space the AR15 can't in non restricted form and others haven't due to cost. Big difference and more focus will be given it by the RCMP as these are the rifles the government wants targeted. They will come for the bolt actions later. But again just playing Devils advocate. How many other "black"semis have been marketed and produced without FRT#?
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Ok, now this is just speculation, and nothing to do with laws/classification. You're even adding marketplace...

Just enjoy the fact that we can finally have more NR options.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
Not looking for a fight here, but lets be clear.
I have not classified the WK180-C as non restricted, I do not need to. I have stated that the WK180-C meets all the criteria for a non restricted firearm.

There are dozens if not hundreds of custom bolt action rifles sold with out an FRT every year.

The point is that if someone wanted to import them an FRT would be required in order to get an import Cert, this is not a legal requirement just Government policy.
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1. You don't have to look for a fight if you don't want to. It's a matter with potentially grave consequences for the end user and hence, it would be in the best interest of the buyers to know where they stand legally. I'm on your side - I like the rifle and wish to buy it - but am not sure if legally this passes the sniff test.
2. " I have stated that the WK180-C meets all the criteria for a non restricted firearm." - It MEETS but IT IS NOT - because the RCMP is the ONLY authority in this land who can proclaim the rifle to be Non Restricted. Seems to me that in the absence of a classification from the RCMP the responsibility for purchasing and using this rifle is being transferred to the buyer.
3. Bolt Actions are not the issue here - semi automatic firearms with unclear lineage that do not have an FRT are. You have admitted that the gas system is a hybrid of existing designs which makes the rifle NOT A COPY of an existing design.

Now that I REALLY start thinking about this over my Whisky, I cannot help but ask myself one question: "Why ?". Why would a well respected firearm retailer be willing to circumvent the existing classification process and rush a rifle to the market knowing full well that may very well be challenged ? I don't doubt your well intentioned motivations, but I cannot help but wonder. Why not just submit it for verification and wait for the ruling prior to putting it for sale ? What do you know that we don't ?

I fear the answer to these questions will be the difference between all of us enjoying the rifle to it's fullest extent and some unlucky WK180C owners playing Bingo behind bars while the rifle is being debated.

I'm sorry I am not towing the "Let's buy this NOW" crowd. It must be frustrating, but I feel that we are morally obligated to know if we are pushing the boundaries of the law by purchasing and using this rifle.
 
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Mr Wolverine said:
Clearance over the gas block should the only issue, but you haven't seen our hand guard, I think it will be the last thing you will want to change. Better to consider a trigger up grade over the standard one, which can vary a lot and maybe upgrade the stock.
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I like what I hear! Hopefully you have a longer handguard oprion :)
 
redivivus said:
1. You don't have to look for a fight if you don't want to. It's a matter with potentially grave consequences for the end user and hence, it would be in the best interest of the buyers to know where they stand legally. I'm on your side - I like the rifle and wish to buy it - but am not sure if legally this passes the sniff test.
2. " I have stated that the WK180-C meets all the criteria for a non restricted firearm." - It MEETS but IT IS NOT - because the RCMP is the ONLY authority in this land who can proclaim the rifle to the Non Restricted. Seems to me that in the absence of a classification from the RCMP the responsibility for purchasing and using this rifle is being transferred to the buyer.
3. Bolt Actions are not the issue here - semi automatic firearms with unclear lineage that do not have an FRT are.

Now that I REALLY start thinking about this over my Whisky, I cannot help but ask myself one question: "Why ?". Why would a well respected firearm retailer be willing to circumvent the existing classification process and rush a rifle to the market knowing full well that may very well be challenged ? I don't doubt your well intentioned motivations, but I cannot help but wonder. Why not just submit it for verification and wait for the ruling prior to putting it for sale ? What do you know that we don't ?

I fear the answer to these questions will be the difference between all of us enjoying the rifle to it's fullest extent and some unlucky WK180C owners playing Bingo behind bars while the rifle is being debated.
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Why? Because they are right. And they know it. And aren't afraid to show it.

What do they know? My guess is that the gun is NR. If you have your tinfoil on, that somehow Wolverine is fleecimg the gun owning public in search of profits before legislation, then shame on you for questioning a good man's integrity.

If you don't have faith in this... feel free to wait.
 
What on earth is wrong with you people?

I have a feeling someone here is going to buy it and submit it to RCMP.

I can't believe this.
 
fenceline said:
Why? Because they are right. And they know it. And aren't afraid to show it.
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The people that work at the lab however profession they are, are still human beings. Will Etter decide to revisit the classification of the original AR-180B's based on lineage? I really really really hope not. We all know they have gone back and reversed decisions in the past. I hope this goes the right way and forces the labs hand and they just classify it as non restricted in an expedited manner.
 
redivivus said:
1. You don't have to look for a fight if you don't want to. It's a matter with potentially grave consequences for the end user and hence, it would be in the best interest of the buyers to know where they stand legally. I'm on your side - I like the rifle and wish to buy it - but am not sure if legally this passes the sniff test.
2. " I have stated that the WK180-C meets all the criteria for a non restricted firearm." - It MEETS but IT IS NOT - because the RCMP is the ONLY authority in this land who can proclaim the rifle to the Non Restricted. Seems to me that in the absence of a classification from the RCMP the responsibility for purchasing and using this rifle is being transferred to the buyer.
3. Bolt Actions are not the issue here - semi automatic firearms with unclear lineage that do not have an FRT are.

Now that I REALLY start thinking about this over my Whisky, I cannot help but ask myself one question: "Why ?". Why would a well respected firearm retailer be willing to circumvent the existing classification process and rush a rifle to the market knowing full well that may very well be challenged ? I don't doubt your well intentioned motivations, but I cannot help but wonder. Why not just submit it for verification and wait for the ruling prior to putting it for sale ? What do you know that we don't ?

I fear the answer to these questions will be the difference between all of us enjoying the rifle to it's fullest extent and some unlucky WK180C owners playing Bingo behind bars while the rifle is being debated.
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What?? Go read the law's definition of the classification of firearms... you don't need an FRT entry.

The fact that the RCMP hasn't 'declared' this as non-restricted CERTAINLY doesn't invalidate that it is a non-restricted firearm, by definition.

Again, as of now:

Given that there are three classes of firearms in Canada: Prohibited, Restricted, and Non-Restricted;

Is the WK180C a firearm (as per definition)? -> Yes

Is the WK180C named as prohibited or restricted firearm? -> No

Does the WK180C have physical dimensions/features that make it prohibited or restricted firearm? -> No

If the WK180C is a firearm, and it is not a prohibited or restricted firearm, then the WK180C is a non-restricted firearm.


After 'now', the only saving grace the RCMP has left is the "easily converted to fire automatic" clause to POSSIBLY classify the WK180C anything else than 'non-restricted'.


Wolverine did mention that the WK180C doesn't have an FRT entry at the moment. The buyer now knows this, and purchases the WK180C, and assumes ANY and ALL 'consequences' of this current FACT. Whoever doesn't feel comfortable buying it now, well don't buy it!
 
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fenceline said:
Yup. And it stands. The rcmp claim it is easily converted to full auto. That isn't over yet either...

I've still got my money where my mouth is on that one.... you?
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Nope .
I don't do preorders that require payment up front period .
When these things are in stock ready for sale I may buy one .
I don't need to be the first kid on the block with a shiny new toy .
 
ReverendX said:
First of all; props to Wolverine Supplies for bringing the market a new non restricted rifle. Maybe there are a lot of different caliber options that can be explored later. Way to go Wolverine!

Secondly, I can’t believe how many police are ignorant of the Firearms Act. Blows my mind.
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fixed it for you
 
gutinater said:
The people that work at the lab however profession they are, are still human beings. Will Etter decide to revisit the classification of the original AR-180B's based on lineage? I really really really hope not. We all know they have gone back and reversed decisions in the past. I hope this goes the right way and forces the labs hand and they just classify it as non restricted in an expedited manner.
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That wasn't too much of a concern when a chance was taken on the nodak...

Seemed to work out for those guys. No different here.
 
tharkhold said:
What?? Go read the law's definition of the classification of firearms... you don't need an FRT entry.

The fact that the RCMP hasn't 'declared' this as non-restricted CERTAINLY doesn't invalidate that it is a non-restricted firearm, by definition.

Again, as of now:

Given that there are three classes of firearms in Canada: Prohibited, Restricted, and Non-Restricted;

Is the WK180C a firearm (as per definition)? -> Yes

Is the WK180C named as prohibited or restricted firearm? -> No

Does the WK180C have physical dimensions/features that make it prohibited or restricted firearm? -> No

If the WK180C is a firearm, and it is not a prohibited or restricted firearm, then the WK180C is a non-restricted firearm.


After 'now', the only saving grace the RCMP has left is the "easily converted to fire automatic" clause to POSSIBLY classify the WK180C anything else than 'non-restricted'.
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The one question you guys are leaving out of your list is:
Is it a variant of a prohibited or restricted rifle? Answer? To be made up by RCMP. Just like the Mossberg 22 Blaze47
 
bfiles said:
Very cool!!!!


Please take into consideration about the possibility of maybe taking AK mags etc... for the 7.62x39 version might be a bit lore receptive then the terrible x39 mag offerings (yes I know minus the 10 rnd pistol mags)
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What he said
 
tharkhold said:
Ok, now this is just speculation, and nothing to do with laws/classification. You're even adding marketplace...

Just enjoy the fact that we can finally have more NR options.
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How is it speculation? Semi's were targeted as well as full auto back in the day. They still are. Thus the push for more and more firearms laws. Banning certain semi's due to "being too easy to convert to full auto" and reduction of magazine capacity. Are you saying "black" rifles haven't been targeted by both the government and the anti's? They targeted the AR15 due to the fact it was relatively cheap, lots of mods available and was scary looking. The Canadian firearms industry has been trying to push the line closer and closer to the "AR15" but not an "AR15" line for some time. Yes it is great what has been accomplished, but the closer and closer they come to that line the more interest from the powers that be, and we have yet to see what this government has in store for us with the next gun control bill. So to make a firearm that "Should be Non restricted" is great. But until that is confirmed then there is still a risk, that in this case will be borne by the customer if it goes wrong. Don't get me wrong I have one coming and am happy these are being produced. But to deny the fact that the "Fit can hit the shan" with this one is sticking our heads in the ground. I signed on to support what is being done by Wolverine but there is still room for it to go wrong when you have nothing officially in writing.
 
redivivus said:
1. You don't have to look for a fight if you don't want to. It's a matter with potentially grave consequences for the end user and hence, it would be in the best interest of the buyers to know where they stand legally. I'm on your side - I like the rifle and wish to buy it - but am not sure if legally this passes the sniff test.
2. " I have stated that the WK180-C meets all the criteria for a non restricted firearm." - It MEETS but IT IS NOT - because the RCMP is the ONLY authority in this land who can proclaim the rifle to be Non Restricted. Seems to me that in the absence of a classification from the RCMP the responsibility for purchasing and using this rifle is being transferred to the buyer.
3. Bolt Actions are not the issue here - semi automatic firearms with unclear lineage that do not have an FRT are. You have admitted that the gas system is a hybrid of existing designs which makes the rifle NOT A COPY of an existing design.

Now that I REALLY start thinking about this over my Whisky, I cannot help but ask myself one question: "Why ?". Why would a well respected firearm retailer be willing to circumvent the existing classification process and rush a rifle to the market knowing full well that may very well be challenged ? I don't doubt your well intentioned motivations, but I cannot help but wonder. Why not just submit it for verification and wait for the ruling prior to putting it for sale ? What do you know that we don't ?

I fear the answer to these questions will be the difference between all of us enjoying the rifle to it's fullest extent and some unlucky WK180C owners playing Bingo behind bars while the rifle is being debated.

I'm sorry I am not towing the "Let's buy this NOW" crowd. It must be frustrating, but I feel that we are morally obligated to know if we are pushing the boundaries of the law by purchasing and using this rifle.
Click to expand...

Please quote chapter and verse which states: "the RCMP is the ONLY authority in this land who can proclaim the rifle to be Non Restricted" Please don't tell me I read it on the internet so it has to be true, I need to know what section of the Criminal Code or regulations you are quoting?

I always understood the RCMP enforce the Law that our elected Government makes, I don't see any section in the CC that allows the RCMP discretion in firearms classification.
 
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