yes or no..Glock or Colt 1911- which has the better service life???
- Thread starter speros
- Start date
Well either LAV is a liar or your facts are wrong. Here's a video of LAV using the slide and there's also a video of Paul Howe using the slide. I'm confident that we both agree that LAV is a big name in the industry, and I'm sure most would agree that Paul Howe is also a big name. For kicks I included a video of another guy(TDSA instructor Marshall Luton) shooting during a couple matches. Watch the reloads, he uses the slide and his reloads are far from slow. Remember, reloading doesn't solve the problem, hits do. Saving an absolute minimum of time during a reload at the risk of missing the slide lock/release or the pistol not be locked to the rear at all, only to miss the target, is counter productive.
LAV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Cnr78WUNg&feature=related
Paul Howe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ryb0QiOXzA&feature=related
Marshall Luton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvrItp_uwAw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Aside from the fact that using the slide is universal to all autos, simple, involves the entire hand, the arm and major muscles, provides a more positive compression of the spring for stripping the first round. Using the slide is also the same way you would charge the pistol in the first place. Its also the same movement you would use to clear a type I and II stoppage. Running the slide is also required to clear a type III stoppage. Minimizing the number of movements required to operate your gun makes for less to go wrong. Using the same(or similar) movements for several operations builds on repetition and repetition is the name of the game. Instinctive movements are the product of repetition. Of course we can't forget the biggest advantage. Running the slide ensures the pistol is loaded REGARDLESS of the slides position. The use of the slide lock/release does not offer this level of performance.
As for Mr. Defoor above. Good for him, he can teach and preach what he likes. The use of slide locks/releases or bolt catches is neither more effective nor simpler than running the slide and/or charge handle.
The difference between the slide lock/release and the mag release is the amount of force required to operate them, and the direction in which that force is to be applied. The slide lock/release is held in position by the compressed recoil spring. The direction of movement is perpendicular to that force which only increases the effort necessary to activate it. The mag release is operating on its own spring force which is much less than that of the recoil spring. The direction of travel for the mag release is also in the same direction/plane as the spring. Both of these factors equate to a much easier control to operate.
Regardless of method, no fight or competition was ever won with a reload. Only hits count, especially fast hits. More time focusing on faster hits and less time on unreliable but faster methods of loading will determine the winner.
TDC
1. That is not Larry Vickers. That is Aaron Roberts.
2. A pistol failing to lock its slide to the rear is itself either a malfunction (damaged slide release lever) or the shooter's error (in grip, specifically strong-hand thumb or weak-hand meat-of-the-thumb placement on the support face of the weapon). In the vast majority of cases where the firearm remains in battery but with an empty chamber, the shooter is going to drop the hammer or striker and hear a 'click'. It is rare, in fact, for a person to perform a speed reload, having emptied the entirety of his magazine, but managing nevertheless to keep the slide release depressed in such a manner where, upon completion of the reload, there is no round present in front of the firing pin. For us Canadians, the odds are one in ten (because of a ten round magazine), plus the odds of the shooter committing the fault at the same time. Most everywhere else, its usually one in fifteen. The more common event is this: the shooter fires all the ammunition from the magazine, but failing to maintain a proper grip on the weapon, the slide remains forward; he hears a 'click' as he naturally assumes it is still loaded (the trigger resets, the slide remains in battery) and pulls the trigger; he performs either a tap-rack, in which, because he has changed his grip, the weapon does lock its slide rearward, or he understands that he has an empty magazine, dumps it, and performs the rack on the reload. I've personally seen this many, many times. This is a major (read huge) problem: you are intending to shoot someone or something yet again, but before you light off that next cartridge, you are having to perform a reload or what you think is a malfunction clearance. You are at least a second-and-a-half behind the curve at this point. Bad juju. Elimination of this error in technique is absolutely crucial for the shooter's continued erudition, and eliminates that vast majority of empty chamber malfunctions. Most, but not all.
2. The length of gunfights are often measured in seconds. As it is a game of ounces when eliminating pounds (any backpacker can attest to this), is it the elimination of fractions of a second that lead shooters to perform one-and-a-half second draws, one-and-three-quarter second reloads, and quarter second splits on reduced targets. You are piling on weight in the hope that you will eliminate even more weight somewhere in the future, to carry the analogy. Poor logic.
3. I have personally never "missed" the slide release lever. It is easy to locate under the time crunch of a reload and simple to manipulate. The extra force that is generated by retracting the slide to the rear has never put the gun back into battery where pressing the slide release won't. That potential energy in that last few millimeters of spring compression is only a fraction of what has already been built up. We used to believe that it was the majority. It turns out that was false (see MarkDL0000 posts on GETOFFTHEX if you want further explanation). A dirty gun will still go back into full battery if its slide release is pressed. If it doesn't, either clean your gun or purchase from a better manufacturer of weapons.
4. Retraction of the slide is also more prone to shooter error because the shooter has more to do with the manipulation of the gun's workings. Instead of pressing a tab and allowing the weapon to charge itself, he must now retract the slide to its furthest most point, and release the slide without riding it forward. I've seen this happen time and time again. While it isn't a problem with well lubricated guns with strong recoil springs, not every weapon is so well cared for, and it is particularly the guns of people who aren't willing to rid themselves of bad habits that usually have the most problems.
5. I have never found the force needed to release the slide lever to be excessive or in anyway a strain or a problem for my finger to overcome. While the explanation does highlight the cause of the slide lever's higher weight-to-release-force compared to that of the magazine's release, it is inconsequential for the same reason the extra spring compression is inconsequential: it might make sense here, off and away from the range; there it is as important as the colour of rocks in Spain. It doesn't matter, not one bit.
6. No. Just no. Many matches and more than a few gunfights have been won by reloads. Period.
The bull#### is getting heavy again. Just because a video shows LAV or someone else using the rack method is meaningless. Its what they are actually teaching now that counts. As mentioned, pretty much all the top tier instructors teaching hitting the release. The arguments against the slide release hold no water when subjected scrutiny. Especially this "the slide release can be too hard for some people to press". Bull####. If the person can pull the trigger they can release the slide using the lever. It is very common for women and smaller men to have strength issues manipulating the slide, which includes trying to grip it and move it after a reload.
The chance that a gun is going to fail from an improper rack vs pressing down on the release lever is much much higher. People short stroke, ride and otherwise ####up far more often then a mechanical device doing its job will #### up.
As for no competition or fight being won because of a fast reload. Again bull####, competitions are won because of reloads all the time. Yes fast accurate hits are important, but slow reloads cost time, time matters. When you actually compete against other top level shooters you'll understand why a fast reload is important. As for fights? Well again, pretty much all the top tier guys will tell you they want a gun that's back into the fight the fastest way possible, wasting time on unnecessary movements will get you killed. That's why they use slide and bolt releases. If the gun jams, well its not your lucky day and you move on.
The chance that a gun is going to fail from an improper rack vs pressing down on the release lever is much much higher. People short stroke, ride and otherwise ####up far more often then a mechanical device doing its job will #### up.
As for no competition or fight being won because of a fast reload. Again bull####, competitions are won because of reloads all the time. Yes fast accurate hits are important, but slow reloads cost time, time matters. When you actually compete against other top level shooters you'll understand why a fast reload is important. As for fights? Well again, pretty much all the top tier guys will tell you they want a gun that's back into the fight the fastest way possible, wasting time on unnecessary movements will get you killed. That's why they use slide and bolt releases. If the gun jams, well its not your lucky day and you move on.
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
...Best.....post...EVER!
+1... Airsoft may not be the best example but I've never had trouble finding the slide release while playing with a pistol; not with my beretta, glock, or 1911. Sig sometimes got a bit confusing but after a few mags of practice you can pretty easily know where the slide release is because you activate with the pad of your thumb only, rather then using the web.
Greenhorse six
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
this should have a thread of its own,it'd be a good topic.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
Greenhorse six:
And your point being what?
Greenhorse six:
this should have a thread of its own,it'd be a good topic.
Now you got the point. Good topic, yes for the most part. Wrong thread though.
Greenhorse six
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
A 22lr is clearly all one needs.
Once again it all comes down to shot placement....
Remember shot placement....
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
just leaning as I go.
Aren't we all?
Anyways, I'll play. Having read some of what has been written re:slide release technique....Slide Lock flick by left thumb (support hand), just as the support hand completes its wrap around the strong hand, works best and quickest for me. Slide slingshot requires too much movement for me, although it works for some.
Yeah, I can't believe there are over 250 replies on this one.
When the Glock has been in service for 100 years we'll let you know. - dan
It would have been awesome if it was a poll, and the options were "yes" and "no" just like in the title question.
