Zed Is Not Your Friend

Something else that probably bears mentioning:

When new shooters are looking around for "the" perfect gun to buy they will see many of the better shooters (pick your Division) shooting primarily X-firearm, and that's where their research naturally begins to trend. Some of the shooters using these guns will have gone through the R&D process on their guns/springs/loads, but most will not. As well, it seems that very few are able or willing to sit down with a newbie and tell them exactly what to expect from the gun, what tuning mods to make, what starting loads to go with, what it's strengths/weaknesses are and what to look for when trouble-shooting issues or testing different loads, etc. etc. Basically, where is the window of functionality, where is the window of competitive advantage, and how much overlap is there on these two windows. Also, most of what is imparted tends to be subjective impressions rather than empirical data, so you end up with everyone out there buying different guns and having to re-invent the wheel every time, and most of them start out with zero experience so they are working mostly in a vacuum.

It's no wonder to me that if you post a question on a forum such as this you'll get hundreds of different answers as to why (pick your gun) is either crap or fantastic.

What would be very cool is if there was some way to compile a short-list database on say, the top 3 guns in each Division and apply specific, standardized criteria to each one based on the needs of high round-count competition. It would be an interesting project but of course it would suck up most of some poor bugger's life and money for probably a year, which is why it won't happen.
 
Something else that probably bears mentioning:

When new shooters are looking around for "the" perfect gun to buy they will see many of the better shooters (pick your Division) shooting primarily X-firearm, and that's where their research naturally begins to trend. Some of the shooters using these guns will have gone through the R&D process on their guns/springs/loads, but most will not. As well, it seems that very few are able or willing to sit down with a newbie and tell them exactly what to expect from the gun, what tuning mods to make, what starting loads to go with, what it's strengths/weaknesses are and what to look for when trouble-shooting issues or testing different loads, etc. etc. Basically, where is the window of functionality, where is the window of competitive advantage, and how much overlap is there on these two windows. Also, most of what is imparted tends to be subjective impressions rather than empirical data, so you end up with everyone out there buying different guns and having to re-invent the wheel every time, and most of them start out with zero experience so they are working mostly in a vacuum.

It's no wonder to me that if you post a question on a forum such as this you'll get hundreds of different answers as to why (pick your gun) is either crap or fantastic.

What would be very cool is if there was some way to compile a short-list database on say, the top 3 guns in each Division and apply specific, standardized criteria to each one based on the needs of high round-count competition. It would be an interesting project but of course it would suck up most of some poor bugger's life and money for probably a year, which is why it won't happen.

I think a fellow made an attempt years ago. Jeff Maass started a page where shooters could log their loads and share any data they had with it shooting it out of their particular gun. He also included data from the various powder manufacturers.

It does seem that if has not been updated in some time though, but it is good for starting points anyway. Here is the link for those that are interested. There is really only data for 40, 38 and 9X21 (told you it was old) and geared toward IPSC/USPSA stuff.

http://www.k8nd.com/

Speaking of sharing info, did you make a decision on the 147?
 
Jeff stopped managing the site a few years back, so it won't be updated any further. It's only load info though; nothing to do with the actual platforms they are launching from.

Still messing with the 147. Interesting.....

I think a fellow made an attempt years ago. Jeff Maass started a page where shooters could log their loads and share any data they had with it shooting it out of their particular gun. He also included data from the various powder manufacturers.

It does seem that if has not been updated in some time though, but it is good for starting points anyway. Here is the link for those that are interested. There is really only data for 40, 38 and 9X21 (told you it was old) and geared toward IPSC/USPSA stuff.

http://www.k8nd.com/

Speaking of sharing info, did you make a decision on the 147?
 
No Todd is not being paid to shoot HK, HK has provided him with a pistol to put 50,000 rounds through on their dime. As with previous guns he's tested, the manufacturer pays for the gun and the ammo, and Todd writes about it...

Isn't that being paid? :D
 
Isn't that being paid? :D

If thats the barometer for you, then feel free to disregard his opinion. For me I find his writing useful and entertaining.

If folks need to see his CV, you can read up on his blog or use this crazy tool on the internets called 'google'. He has shot USPSA, IDPA and instructs NRA, CCW courses etc.
 
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Indication is - who uses what gun and how high of a place they reach in IPSC, IDPA and USPSA. There are many CZ guns that make it to the top.
 
So who's Todd? The website link in post 1 says nothing about him.

If I knew who he was; I'd be better able to weight his comments - the fact that Rob hired him for training gives me the indication he has some abilty, but I'd like to know more. Competition or tactical guy?

Todd G is Todd Green.
Todd Green is an IDPA champion and a firearms trainer.
He also operates the website pistol-training.com*

Todd Louis Green has worked in the firearms industry since 1998, including instructing for the NRA Range, Beretta, and SIG-Sauer. He has over 700 hours of firearms and combatives training from such prestigious trainers as Ken Hackathorn, Ernest Langdon, Larry Vickers, SIG Academy, and Blackwater. A 3-time “Advanced” rated shooter at Rogers Shooting School, Todd is also a graduate of the NRA Tactical Pistol Instructor Development program and a 3 division Master-ranked IDPA competitor. Todd is a certified SIGARMS, Beretta, and Glock armorer; certified Simunition force-on-force instructor; and a long time member of IALEFI, IDPA, and USPSA.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=219986

* (Not to be confused with Randy L. Smith's pistoltraining.com).
 
Thanks Wendell. Now I understand and it makes a lot more sense.

CZ can publish whatever they like for thier "purpose" for the SP-01, but the simple truth is it was built for IPSC production competition, which it has excelled at due to it's weight, rule-bending (but not breaking!) options and price point; that has flowed into smaller shooting sports like IDPA and plinking. It's a fantastic marketing job and CZ is to be complimented on thier success.

To judge the SP-01 in a "tactical" mindset as a purposeful serious-use gun is like saying "I don't understand why I can't carry a pallet of sods in my Hyundai".
It's simply the wrong tool for the job.

I would expect a completely different review had Matt Burkett, Todd Jarret or Eric Grauffel been teaching the course.
 
actually I would have expected the same review from any of those people, had the guns performed the same way. If you read Todd's article you might notice, from the start, that there is a certain amount of sarcasm in it. But also a whole lot of truth. He is one of the top tier instructors in the US right now, and while most of his clients are LEO, Military people, or people that CCW, his classes are mostly about shooting, not tactics. At least the ones I brought him up to teach. That means it's suitable for all types of shooters. And under the heavy round count drills (hot hot guns), all 4 CZ's had issues, that couldn't be explained away on the spot as being operator error or ammo related. The Glock 20 (Misanthropists) failed due to squib loads, and he then another G20 someone had with a .40 barrel in it and some factory .40 ammo. That ran flawlessly.
Todd's article, and his website, is designed to promote discussion, and get people who shoot a lot, to provide feedback on their guns and reliability.
As for his deal with HK equaling being paid, I'd say no. They don't pay his gas, or for his time, nor for the words they write. They provide a gun and ammo and he he shoots the crap out of it and writes about it. He has to teach and do other stuff to pay the bills.
 
...They provide a gun and ammo and he he shoots the crap out of it and writes about it. He has to teach and do other stuff to pay the bills.

I didn't say HK is paying his bills, but he got a free gun and get to shoot it for free (well, sort of). :D
 
I have had 2 CZ pistols lately and 1 gave me fits while the other is 100% reliable. Same spring weights, same reloads, same mags, could not figure it out. Change the extractor spring, still the odd jam.

I never got around to figuring out why the one would give me that end of match jam, I just sold it and shoot the good one.
 
Have been using a pre-B 75 for 25 years (IPSC, now ODPL). Thousands of roads down range. Lately have changed the mag springs (original mags), the hammer and sear (wear from live/ dry firing). Have had the "odd" stoppage in this time, all from reloads. Last FTE was due to a filthy extractor (how it gripped anything, I have no idea). The on going debate with this gun has fired 50,000, 1 million rounds with no cleaning is not something to be flashing about to the average gun owner. To push the fact that the gun is not cleaned simply tells a future owner no need, just like the M16 debacle. "Look new rifle, nothing broke in trials, and it is virtually self-cleaning. Oh by the way use this other ammo, its cheaper". Remember cleaning is not just removing dirt, its about checking for worn/broken parts and checking functionality of controls (various safety features, mag seating/ release etc).
If firearms are not properly maintained you are asking for trouble. It is one thing to teach firing techniques, equipment etc but you must include maintenance and inspection. The CZs that failed were they maintained, were they cleaned after each session? I now that glocks go and go but they are focused toward LE and my experiences with LE pers cleaning their guns is the same as my uncles car maintenance, when it stops running, buy a new one! If this is such a high pressure do or die training session then add in taking care of your equipment and ammo.
I see lots of the same problems with BHPs but then again they are only 60+ years old. Most of the troops consider them anchors. Wonder where the Glocks will be?
 
Jeff stopped managing the site a few years back, so it won't be updated any further. It's only load info though; nothing to do with the actual platforms they are launching from.

Still messing with the 147. Interesting.....

There is some limited info in the footnotes actually, not very many details. Usually what gun, how many ports, barrel length etc. But only on a few loads. Still not a bad resource for new reloaders.
 
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