ZF41 clone project

I thought about the other types, but many of those are over-reproduced IMHO. The only other build I was considering is using one of my RCs (a BNZ43) to do a BNZ style single-claw because good repro mounts are now available and it's uncommon, but I decided on this instead.

What the heck eh? I've not seen another decent ZF41 build on CGN yet, so why not break ground? :) It helps that no complete or collectible guns will be harmed in the making of this rifle.
 
Well it looks like I have a stripped bolt en-route from a generous CGN-er (I traded for it) that seems to be out of a byf44 or 45. So once it arrives, I can start to progress significantly again. :)
 
Well I progressed a few little things on this project. Now before anyone freaks out, let me be clear:

1) YES, I am faking some of these parts. Some call it "humping". Essentially what we are talking about is taking a common K98k part and making it into a less common part and then re-serializing it to match the rifle where appropriate. No, this would not be ethical if I were doing it to improve the sale-ability of a rifle for monetary gain by representing it as original - DO NOT DO THAT!!! (it's fraud, really).

2) NO, I am not doing this to be unethical. My build will be clearly marked as a reproduction below the wood line and I am NOT going to hump any parts that aren't visible when the rifle is assembled, so a cursory disassembly will show the rifle to be NOT MATCHING. For example, I will leave the firing pin mis-matched. It does happen to be out of a byf44 though. Be careful though, serious fakesters are not so concerned about your well being as I am ;)

3) Pay VERY close attention to what I am doing here in some of these posts. This should help newbies detect FAKES. As a machinist, I think I'm pretty decent at "counterfeiting" 1944 era MO parts. And no, I have not done / will not do this and sell an "improved" rifle as original. Others have and will. Hopefully you all learn something here.

4) I hope that my posting this stuff on the net, while informative and entertaining, will serve as proof that I'm clearly not hiding this rifle's lineage to any future prospective owner. Though honestly I don't plan to ever sell it - it's going to be my range rifle for when I get sick of wearing my glasses and trying to see fine iron sights - lol.

The goal of this project is, within reason and without making this clone too indiscernable from the real thing, to make the rifle resemble a real one. I am not using a WW2 barrel, so though it will outwardly look original, a close inspection will show the post-war proofs on the bbl. A serious faker would weld over those markings, surface-anneal the welds, and stamp new markings. I could do that, but I'm not a fraud artist ;)

Now obviously I started with a bare receiver so a matching bolt would a miracle to find. I have a stripped, mismatched, late-war byf bolt on the way which will be "skillfully force matched" (I hate that term!) to show you guys how convincing fake markings can get. I already have all the small bits, most of them actual oberndorf production, with a real mix of serial numbers which will be made to appear matching.

Let's start with the cocking piece. Late war Oberndorf cocking pieces are just like mid-war cocking pieces from any manufacturer except without a WaA. Somewhere in 1944 they started using a 5 digit serial number with a letter suffix. MO bolt parts only had the last 4 digits stamped on them. My receiver is an f block so all 4 digits were used on all bolt parts except the extractor which was un-numbered by '44. Later (I think around h block?) MO changed to only putting 4 digits on the shroud and bolt, the rest of the parts getting only the last 2 digits.



Here is a mid-war WaA37 cocking piece chucked into the lathe. These hare pretty glass hard, so you need to use a carbide cutter to do a skim cut and turn it into a "fresh" part. Since we are trying to duplicate a late-war piece, I'll leave some machining marks on the back of the cocking piece, unlike the smooth surface on this earlier part. A poor fake would look smooth and irregular because the amateur would use a file and sandpaper to scrub the old markings. Better fakes use real manual lathes and mills to duplicate the original manufacturing process as we are doing here. Some basic polishing was done to radius the outer lip as per the K98k drawing for cocking pieces. I happen to have 2mm a number stamp set that is a dead ringer for 1944 era Oberndorf production. The sanitized part is mounted in a heavy vise and a heavy ball peen is used to apply new numbers. They should be deeply stamped. You then put the cocking piece BACK into the lathe and re-polish the rear surface with 120 grit. MO parts were always re-polished after being serialized to de-burr the stampings. Finally you real the hole out to .216" to eliminate any distortion form the stamping process and ensure a smooth fit of the cocking piece.

When this part is blued, it will look real. How to detect it may be fake? Well, yo ucannot scrub a cocking piece without the rear of the firing pin standing a bit proud. this can be hidden by slightly trimming the FP tail (I didn't do it to this one). The cocking piece could be mounted on a known "good" firing pin and if the edge of the domed tail sticks above the cocking piece surface more than a few thou, it's a re-numbered part. Period.



Next, I needed some late-war scews to used in my stamped trigger guard. Although lock screws were typically no longer in use, MO continued to use up scalloped screws. In this case, I had a post-war East German rear action screw and an early numbered front screw. these were mounted in the lathe and the serial number removed from the one and the dome turned flat on the other. these now look like typical rough and un-polished late-war screws. When making a replica gun, it's little details like this that make it look convincing.



Here we see the original rear sight assembly (factory un-numbered, but "WM" proofed on the inside) that was still present on the original barrel, but badly rusted. In this case the pitting has largely been removed and the part filed to 180 grit to replicate the original late-war finish. After re-blueing it will look factory fresh.



More to come.
 
As far as I'm concerned not a thing wrong with your project on ethical grounds. You are not misrepresenting anything and all is above board. I realize there is a big business in faking WW2 German stuff in the US and to a less extent here but I am interested in your progress. Carry on, Claven
 
You're being very clear about it so absolutely no problem with what you're doing. I think it's really cool that you're going the extra mile to make it look authentic. It is going to be a great build!

Keep us posted.
 
In truth, the metal bits are NOT the hard part. Everything hinges on the wood work. I have some irons in the fire and hopefully a good candidates shakes loose from the trees, as it were.
 
As far as I'm concerned not a thing wrong with your project on ethical grounds. You are not misrepresenting anything and all is above board. I realize there is a big business in faking WW2 German stuff in the US and to a less extent here but I am interested in your progress. Carry on, Claven

I think what I'm doing is actually going, to some extent, be less a "grey area" than some of the K98k's coming out of James River Armory, though I'll bet my work looks more convincing on those parts I do alter.
 
Here are another couple parts I worked on yesterday. I couldn't photograph them since I was letting them soak in evaporust to remove the bluing.

Both these parts are off 1944 or 1945 Mauser Oberndorf rifles, but were mismatched. For the shroud, all byf44 shrouds have a flat machined into the top where the serials are added. Not so for earlier shrouds. I assume the flat was added to make serializing easier (?). The safety is a sub-contracted part. In both cases, I left the faintest hint of hte previous number evident so they would not be mistaken as original bits. I could have removed them completely though. The safeties are glass-hard, so I used a diamond file to carefully remove material without changing the shape.

the safety was re-buffed with fine paper after it was stamped. Safety serial numbers never have displaced metal standing proud - they were pretty much always polished flat after being marked.

To detect a faked safety, you have to rely on measurement. The scallop will be deeper on one side if an old number was removed. It's a LOT harder to detect a renumbered shroud - sometimes it's impossible.



 
Good news and bad.

Good: I found a stock set which should work wonderfully and it's en-route.

Bad: The bolt I got, it turns out, it likely 1945. Round gas holes, no guide rib, and no WaA so was probably out of a czech dot45. Now back on the hunt for a nazi era wartime stripped bolt body. :(

this is really stalling things :( until I get the final bolt I can't index the barrel or install sight bases. Even e-bay is pretty dry at present. :(
 
I keep thinking so, but at this stage, I'd be happy with one outwardly similar to a real byf44 bolt. Any mid to late WW2 bolt with a guide rib and nazi firing proof on the back of the handle root (regardless of maker) would work for my purposes.
 
As an aside, I got some more parts in today.

I got a very nice condition (original blued finish) 1944 era byf stamped trigger guard with locking screw provision. Somewhere I have some late war non-scalloped lock screws I'll use with it. The down side is I had thought it was not serialized, but it does have a serial on it, which is unfortunate. An f-block 44 probably would not have a serial, so it's from likely a d or e block rifle IMHO. I can't really weld over the old number and re-stamp it without losing the byf marking, so I'll live with the mis-match it IS a nice TG.

I also got in the ZF41 mount. The mount is better made than I expected. It does differ from a real one in a few ways. Firstly, the pin for the catch is a straight solid rod, on a real one, it's a hollow pin with a domed head on one side. Also, an original has a set screw on the underside of the front ring to prevent rotation of the scope in the rings. Not sure why, because scope rotation in a ring is not a common occurrence. The repro mount omitted this screw.

These reproductions are clearly made from castings and some surfaces are left as-cast. Originals were machined on every surface. It also has no markings (though supposedly some repros ARE marked). I bought my scope from another supplier and it has not arrived yet, so I can't comment on how it fits in the rings.

The mount also came with one of those ZK41 adaptors that replaces the rear sight ramp. Although it fit well on a trial barrel I have and would probably be solid, I don't plan to use it.

Will post pics when the scope gets here.

The hunt for an appropriate bolt body goes on...
 
Update:

I got my ZF41 reproduction rear sight base in from France. This is the type that is a close copy of a real one which replaces the soldered-on sight base on a standard K98, not the cheap repro insert type that replaces the rear sight ramp and puts the ZF41/1 scope too high.

The good is that the maker improved the repro adding a correct half-moon dish cut (older ones had a straight cut that made fakes easier to spot), the bad is that this is NOT a drop-in installation.

For starters, the rail is too long. I borrowed a real mount and it did not fit, neither did my Accumount repro. The issue is that the rail is too long, so you have to file the nose down until the rail moves forward enough to latch in. I filed mine so that both mounts slid one and locked in. I hear the numrich mount requires more filing, but my accumount clicked in at the same spot as a real mount. The rail was also slightly too tall and had some burrs on it, a little draw filing fixed that.

Next, the mount, as I received it, would not accept a real sight ramp. It does now, after about 4 hours of machinist blue, fine files and wet/dry paper to get it to fit properly.

Finally, it would not accept a real sight. I had to do a little machining on the inside of it and a little needl-filing to get anough clearance to tightly mount a rear sight leaf.

The set screw at the back was countersunk to a slightly too large diameter for a real screw head, so I may make a replacement screw with a slightly larger head so that there are no perceptible gaps around the screw head.

In other words, if you are not comfortable working metal into final shape, this $250 base is not for you, or at the least may require gunsmith installation and fitting. It IS the best solution next to a real base though.

I'd post some photos, but the base is over at a friend's house waiting for him to get more OA gas so we can tin it onto the barrel. I also use his barrel vise, which is another story...

When I took the original barrel off, I needed a 4' breaker bar to unscrew it. Near the ned of the war, Mauser, it seems, tried to stretch their tooling to the max. Receivers were rough-threaded with a boring bar and finish threaded with a big tap before they were hardened. I surmise that when they made my receiver, it was one of the last receivers cut with that tap before they switched to a new one. This means the threading is pretty coarse and a hair undersized. I tried 4 scrap military barrel in the receiver and none of them would screw in easily. All of them threaded readily into a couple other pre-war receivers I have lying around.

When I tried to install the good barrel I'm using for the build, I got it half way on with a breaker bar before I stopped for fear I would crack the receiver. So I'm going to have to take a light skim cut off the barrel threads before it will install cleanly. No big deal, but worth mentioning in case anyone else decides to work with one of these late war receivers.

Final install of the barrel will have to wait until I get a bolt. Once I do, I can headspace the barrel, which might be fine, but may also need to be set back or chambered deeper - we shall see. A friend has the right reamer I can borrow if required. Once the barrel is indexed and headspaced, the sight bases will be located and tinned.

The floorplate I ordered came in from Numrich and got sent back. God those clowns are hit and miss. This time they sent me one so badly bent that it would never have been able to be made right again. It also had broken the front lip welds at some point and been crudely brazed together to the point it would not accept a magazine spring. Really disappointed a trained monkey at GPC thought this was OK to send out. Hopefully the replacement one will be better (?).

So parts yet to arrive:

- My stock set, which is inbound.
- My WaA 135 stamped band spring, inbound.
- A Bolt, I now have a line on one - will update if acquired.
- An un-numbered stamped front band (I have a rough one, but looking to upgrade it)
- Replacement stamped byf floorplate.
- My ZF-41 scope, should be somewhere between Germany and here.
 
Wow. Lots of work on the rear sight base. That's not good news. I was hoping it would be a little better made than that. Still a better option then the one that replaces the sight bed though.

You can buy a tap for the receiver threads if you don't want to mess with the barrel threads.

Propane torch will easily heat up the solder for the rear sight.

Sounds like fun so far. Can't wait to see some more progress pics.
 
great project,i was thinking of adding a scope and mount to my BYF 43 what are theZF41 scope and mounts from numerich like.Are the any good,or should one stay away from these as they are quite pricey in my opinion.
 
The numrish scope is really the only one on the market, all suppliers are getting them from the same source in France (who had the tubes made in China and France-sourced optics assembled onto them in China). The Numrich mount is probably as wood as the Accumount one. The difference is Accumount ships to Canada, Numrich will not ship military style optics up here. I ordered my scope from Zib in Germany, as they will ship it here.

None of the drop-in bases are very good. They may be functional in some rifles, but they don;t look right to the trained eye. For a shooter, it would be OK if it fits your base decently.
 
Another news, I appear to have purchased a WaA 140 bolt over the weekend, which is perfect as Mauser used these fn-supplied bolts in wartime production. It's rc, but no worries as I'm reblueing it anyhow. Just have to wait for it to get here, then the ball will get rolling.



 
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