Ammo is too Hot. What to do?

saskgunowner101 said:
You do realize that anyone looking at the page you posted would assume you didn't know the difference between bullet and cartridge case. Are you saying the OP and his observations are wrong?
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Do you realize if people would "READ" what I posted they would have a much better understanding of this subject, the problem with lubricating the bullet is if any excess lube gets in front of the bullet and behind the bullet and on to the case.
Grease or oil in front of the bullet increases chamber pressure and can cause a bulged barrel, grease or oil on the case increases bolt thrust and can double the force on the bolt. The problem with greasing the bullet is the individual doing the greasing and the correct amount that does not increase chamber pressure and bolt thrust.

Let me be very clear, after I got out of the service and started loading again someone far older with more reloading experience told me to leave a little lube on the cases to prevent case head separations. Being young and inexperienced I thought it would also be OK to not remove any gun oil from the bore, in less than a year the rifle I was shooting was over FIELD headspace limits. Meaning the oil in the bore and chamber caused bolt lug setback and excessive headspace.

The British military to this day when proofing military firearms use two proof cartridges, one dry proof cartridge to proof the barrel and one oiled proof cartridge to proof the bolt and receiver. After proofing if the firearms headspace has increased over .002 to .003 the firearm fails proof testing. The oiled proof cartridge simulates combat conditions the worst being water in the chamber and bore, and none of you here are shooting in combat conditions or need to reproof your rifles.

Below is from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms, and the British were using the base copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure. The copper crusher pellet was hollow to allow the firing pin to pass through the copper crusher pellet. The chamber pressure was taken at the very base of the case and not the mid point of the case as the SAAMI does today or at the case mouth as the European CIP standards.

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For those of you familiar with the Enfield rifle and the term "bolt head over rotation" it is caused by bolt thrust, and this bolt thrust actually makes the bolt head and bolt "shorter" and causes the bolt head to over rotate.

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Bolt thrust with a dry cartridge and chamber is like being hit on the head with a baseball bat while wearing a football helmet. (you have protection) Bolt thrust with a oil or grease on the cartridge or in the chamber is like being hit on the head with the same baseball bat without the protection of the helmet. Your rifle doesn't need a brain hemorrhage or a concussion and the massive headache to go with it.

Lead cast bullets are lubricated in the bullets grease grooves, the problem is jacketed bullets do not have grease grooves and any "EXCESS" lube will end up in front of the bullet or behind the bullet and on to the case itself.

And this is why I quoted Murphy's law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

And the safest thing to do is unload the ammo and keep any grease out of the bore and chamber and not have the same problem the American Army shooting team did in 1921 when greasing bullets.

Greasing bullets is an accident waiting for a place to happen and the reason why bullets are "DRY" lubed with Boron Nitride, Tungsten Disulfide, or MOLY.

And let me also make this very clear, this is not criticism leveled at Ganderite, it is a warning to those of you who do not know what the term "a little grease" means and where the excess grease can go and Murphy's law .
 
I don't know what this has to do with anything but one time my buddy left his 308 in the barn for a week and it got a little rusty. So he showed it to me and I figured it was still good to shoot so I fired a couple shots. The recoil was much less than normal and there was obviously rust in the chamber making it very hard to extract the cases. That rusty chamber must have gripped the cases so well there was very little bolt thrust and this affected the recoil, its the only reason I can think of anyways. I took the bbl off, touched the chamber up with a reamer and polished it. Fired it again and recoil was back to a normal 308. Was very interesting.


Also one time I left to much case lube on some full length sized 30-06 brass and noticed that I had excessive primer flattening on a mid range IMR 4350 and 165g load I never had problems with before. Wiped the cases clean and the primer flattening went away. There is little doubt that slippery cases will increase bolt thrust in my mind so I try to keep my cases as free from lube as possible, especially with guns like double rifles.
 
I've read the noted pages. You didn't answer me though, do you believe the OP is wrong in his assertions? Let's be clear here. Are we or are we not talking about greasing a bullet? Not a lot of grease, not all over the case, not all over the chamber, or my body for that matter, but simply a little on the bullet itself.

You can argue and bafflegab til the cows come home, but I don't recall bring up bolt thrust etc. I believe an oiled cartridge is a no-no, as well as an oiled chamber is a no-no. The OP worked in some capacity with pressure testing equipment, and here you're arguing with me. Why is that?
 
saskgunowner101 said:
I've read the noted pages. You didn't answer me though, do you believe the OP is wrong in his assertions? Let's be clear here. Are we or are we not talking about greasing a bullet? Not a lot of grease, not all over the case, not all over the chamber, or my body for that matter, but simply a little on the bullet itself.

You can argue and bafflegab til the cows come home, but I don't recall bring up bolt thrust etc. I believe an oiled cartridge is a no-no, as well as an oiled chamber is a no-no. The OP worked in some capacity with pressure testing equipment, and here you're arguing with me. Why is that?
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Would you read what Hatcher said on the subject from the link I posted and stop using words like argue and bafflegab til the cows come home. What didn't you understand about jacketed bullets not having grease grooves and "WHERE" the grease ends up when you pull the trigger.

It doesn't matter what Gander did because you will not find a single firearms manufacture, a ammunition manufacture or a reloading manual that tells you to grease your jacketed bullets. You can't compress oil or grease and if Hatcher said it raised chamber pressures and increased bolt thrust in 1921 it will still do it today because nothing has changed.

I dry the chamber and bore before shooting and I will NEVER leave oil or grease on my cases, in my chamber or in my bore so yes I strongly disagree with Ganderite for the simple reason it can cause higher than normal chamber pressures and increased bolt thrust if the grease doesn't stay on just the bullet.

What is so hard to understand greasing bullets didn't work for the U.S. Army in 1921 and it was proven to raise chamber pressure and bolt thrust. "READ" what happened in 1921, the grease ended up on the neck of the case preventing the neck of the case from expanding and raising chamber pressures to dangerous levels, It continued to flow back over the case and increased bolt thrust to proof pressure levels and got in front of the bullet bulged barrels and increased pressure.

This has noting to do with WHO your forum buddies are and has everything to do with forgetting history and making the same mistakes that were made in the past.

The real question is WHERE is the excess grease going to go when you pull the trigger????? In 1921 it was squeezed and flowed back over the cartridge case and in front of the bullet.

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So don't shoot the messenger saskgunowner101 and start thinking about where any excess lube will end up and Murphy's law.
 
still doesn't change the fact that the op is talking about lubing the bullet and not the casing. if you cleaned your chamber after every shot i would be very surprised if lube started getting into the chamber. and even if you went every 10 rounds unless you are dipping the entire bullet in a bowl of lube then inserting it into the chamber, i doubt very much that the lube would get much past the neck.

but regardless the information you and the OP posted is enough for the people to make a decision and live with the consequences.
 
And one more thing to think about, what is the make believe greased bullet touching and rubbing against as it is being chambered below.
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I spent my working life in aircraft maintenance and over half of it in quality control so think about this.

97% of all aircraft crashes are caused by human error and only 3% are caused by an actual mechanical failure. And greasing bullets is an accident waiting for a place to happen.
 
Boomer said:
Aside from moly-coated bullets, which behave in a similar manner, anyone who shoots cast already puts grease on their bullets.
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the lube is generally seated inside the case so it can't really get into the chamber. but there are people who tumble lube which covers the entire bullet in a coating of lube.
 
I made up 200 rounds to be fire formed while shooting a match. Then I discovered the load was too hot. I greased a couple bullets and found the velocity dropped 110 fps. About the same as 1.5 gr less powder.

Today I tested some greased ammo at 100 yards to see if it still shot well. It did. The greased rounds look like this.
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The harmonics were totally different, as the groups shifted about 2".
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P51 is correct in everything he says. Bolt thrust is increased, once the grease migrates to the chamber, as it eventually does.

My suggestion here was to point out that in an emergency, there is a way to use hot ammo. I have seen guys use ammo all weekend in a match, blowing primers, because it was either shoot or go home. Blowing primers ruins the brass and is dangerous, so greased bullets is an alternative.

When I started shooting, the required rifle was a #4 shooting issue 303 military ball ammo. Some lots of this ammo tended to foul badly, so one of the standard procedures was to coat the bullets with "Never Nickle" , which I recall was a grease. This was SOP with thousands of shooters for many years. I never heard a single word about it causing rifle problems. Maybe we were all careful about not using too much and getting it in chambers.

The idea of greasing bullets re-emerged in England a few years ago and a number of guys were doing it. The ammo maker (RG) had some concerns about bolt thrust issues, so they ran a test in the lab. They found that the grease migrated to chambers after a while, increasing bolt thrust. They also found that in the heavy 4 lug rifles in use, it had no ill effects.

I had some reservations about posting this suggestion. I suggest greasing as a way out of an emergency - not a regular practice.
 
From looking at your "grease" it appears to be moly or graphite base so the main ingredient are friction inhibitors. It is the friction inhibitors like Boron Nitride, Tungsten Disulfide, or MOLY that are lowering the pressure and not the grease. Many shooters use "Lock-Ease" and spray the bore with graphite, the carrier then evaporates leaving a graphited bore (no oil or grease)

GUIDE to Bullet Coating
Coating Bullets with Boron Nitride, Tungsten Disulfide, or MOLY

By reducing friction, bullet coating has the effect of reducing pressures in your barrel. This means that you’ll get less velocity with coated bullets than naked bullets, given the same powder load. Anti-friction coatings are Speed Robbers.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/guide-to-bullet-coating/

MOLY — Does It Extend Barrel Life?
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/moly-does-it-extend-barrel-life/

Norma claims “testing showed barrels retained accuracy more than twice as long when Norma moly bullets were used from the outset. This is because Norma Diamond Line is coated with molybdenum disulphide and a protective layer of wax. Friction is reduced which means that the bullet travels further along the barrel before peak pressure is reached. Moly is a superb friction reducer and it’s bearing capacity is beyond the yield point of known metals. When a molycoated bullet enters the throat and travels down the barrel it has less friction than a ordinary bullet. So it is not surprising to see a lower pressure.


The magic word here is not grease but what the grease contains to lower friction and chamber pressure.
 
tokguy said:
Well posted Ganderite.
I tip my hat to you
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X2
Ganderite is someone who has proven to be a reliable source of valuable information on this forum. Having said that, the biged51s posts have been likewise, and pointing out the potential dangers associated with a particular technique when imprudently or carelessly followed should not be disregarded. A very thin smear of grease on a bullet is safe enough, but if that grease migrates to the chamber, there is a potential for damage and injury.
 
Keeping in mind what has been posted;
Swiss GP-11 has a grease/wax ring at the cartridge mouth.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=100283
The Pederson delayed blow back rifle used waxed cartridges to aid in extraction.
The G-3 rifles uses fluted chambers to aid in extraction, something I have not seen on bolt action rifles.
In view of what I have read I would prefer clean cartridges and dry chambers.
 
This posting isn't about who is right and who is wrong, it is about common sense, meaning the amount of grease applied to the bullet and how much is too much and how much will cause excessive chamber pressure and bolt thrust. To this day some British proof houses still use the base crusher method and oiled cartridges to measure chamber pressure. As long as anyone reading this understands that a rifle is designed to fire dry cartridges and that wet, oiled or greased cartridges increase bolt thrust and wear along with increased chamber pressure.

Ganderite is very experienced reloader and shooter and knows what "minimal" amount of grease means and Ganderite also tested this in a lab. I'm not worried about what Ganderite does, I posted my responses for the people who do not know what minimum amount means and planned on really "greasing up" their bullets. In 1921 the Army shooters were dipping their bullets in Lubriplate and got too much on their bullets and the necks of their cases and this caused excessively high chamber pressure.

And common sense should also remind you of Murphy's Law.
 
Have you looked at or 'played' with different types of lubricant? There are some spray applied lubes that once set, they are almost a a dry lube that would be difficult to scrub off in the chamber - afterall lubricants have come a long way in the hundred years that this was commonplace. Of particular interest would be Bostich bearing lube - I use this on my presses and it works wonders. It would interesting to see if this worked on bullets too.


bigedp51 said:
In 1921 the Army shooters were dipping their bullets in Lubriplate and got too much on their bullets and the necks of their cases and this caused excessively high chamber pressure.
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At the risk of being pedantic, Hatcher wrote much more than that. He certainly stated that lubing bullets with grease/lubricant was common place before and after WWI (predominantly to prevent fouling and corrosion) and the testing with lubed and unlubed 1920 National Match Ammo was the source of identifying the practice of lubing as an unhealthy practice with negative side effects. Based on their results they forbade the use of grease in the 1921 matches which was not heeded.
However, in addition to new practices with respect to lubing ammo, they also rolled out new, experimental ammunition with an alloy jacketed bullet which had a tendency to 'cold weld' or 'solder' the bullet to the case.
From page 339: "The usual bullet pull on service ammunition at that time was around 50 or 60 pounds, but the first bullet of the new lot that we pulled ran over 300 pounds, and some ran up to 600 pounds or more."
It was his thought that the ammunition if used dry, performed well (and so presumably within pressure specifications).
So his theory goes that it was a combination of effects of grease and this soldering-type tension with the ammo in use that saw increases of pressures that caused catistrophic failure in the 1921 matches.
 
beltfed said:
Have you looked at or 'played' with different types of lubricant? There are some spray applied lubes that once set, they are almost a a dry lube that would be difficult to scrub off in the chamber - afterall lubricants have come a long way in the hundred years that this was commonplace. Of particular interest would be Bostich bearing lube - I use this on my presses and it works wonders. It would interesting to see if this worked on bullets too.
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I suspect a dry lube would be much safer.

The point of the posting was what to do in an emergency if the ammo is too hot. I and others carry grease for lubing the bolt locking lugs, so that is available as an option. If I happened to have a spray can of some kind of dry lube in my kit, I would use it.
 
Are there any published results comparing the difference in pressure from 50 - 60 pounds to 300 - 600 pounds ?
I would think that at about 50,000 psi pressure it would make no noticeable difference.
 
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