Stopping Rifles, .375 - .450 - .505 Gibbs

I write this post oddly feeling a little down. I had built up to myself, and the thread, what an impressive level of recoil stoppers produce that I had even convinced myself they were on the borderline of manageable. The more I shoot these guns however, including the .505, the less impressed I am. Perhaps I shouldn't say less impressed, the guns perform better than anticipated, they are straightforward to shoot, kick a lot more than a .375 or the like but far, far less than you'd expect. In fact, on the second day with the .505, today, I forgot about the rifle as we launched bullets into the simple penetration test target below and found myself wholly interested in how the target stack reacted. It took me a second to get my mind back to, "I was afraid of this gun a few days ago.", it became within a handful of rounds, just shooting. I really want to express that this is not said in bravado, or wanting to join a different "league" of shooter, truly any experienced shooter can shoot these rifles, including stickhunter's lightweight .505 Gibbs. I even tapped the blocks twice with the .505 in quick succession, and the rounds landed a palm's width apart. There was none of the fun release of "Ho-ho-ho!" laughter I expected, from my shooting partner either, just, "Huh… so that's a .505. We need a .577."

Now, out of the .375, the .450 Rigby, Doug's kindly loaned .470, and stick's lovely .505 the only one that really feels like it's on a different level is the lightweight .505. I received that slight sensation of being punched, the brain rattle anyone who's spent too much time in bars as a young guy knows, and the bolt handle jumped to clock my trigger finger pretty well on the second session when I relaxed my grip a bit no longer considering the rifle as mean. It's real, it'll put you on your back foot if you aren't behind the rifle, it smacks enough you know you're not shooting something for this continent, and it is completely manageable. Like letdown manageable. There's no ending up turned thirty degrees from your target, no clock cleaning and loss of situational awareness, no rifle jumping out of your hands. Simply hearty recoil and a rifle that hits what you aim at. Sorry I actually wish it could be more exciting and that I could relay a tale of rifles you can barely keep in your hands, as I say, a little let down. By tomorrow I'll be heartened the guns are so manageable and I'll definitely be packing .450 or up for the Rhino and Ele this winter.

Here's the penetration target, 3" thick spruce planks. Performance of each cartridge on them will be in the article, the results are surprising and not what we expected.

 
Ardent said:
There's no ending up turned thirty degrees from your target, no clock cleaning and loss of situational awareness, no rifle jumping out of your hands.
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Thanks for this. I imagine that if firing the powerful stopping rifles often produced the effects above, the stories we all treasure about heart-pounding near misses in Africa would mostly have different endings! Imagine trying to brain an angry Murdersaurus Rex and being kicked literally senseless by your rifle!
 
Hmph. Ardent your note about the recoil is interesting. I guess John Taylor was right when he wrote (about the .500 Jeffery) in Africa Rifles and Cartridges:
"This is the most powerful sporting magazine rifle that has ever been placed on the market. It's a glorious weapon, and very easy and pleasant to handle and shoot. I used three of these rifles at different times, trying them out for their owners, and each time told myself that I simply must get one for myself. This is the only magazine rifle that has ever had that effect on me. I preferred it to the .505, but it's not easy to say why; I think the answer is to be found in the fatter fore-arm with which Jeffery fitted his weapons and which gave me a much better and more comfortable grip.

These were, I think, the most perfectly balanced magazine rifles I ever used. If I was having one built, however, I should certainly insist on a 22" barrel instead of the 24" that is normally fitted. The cartridge has an ample reserve of power to permit of this reduction in barrel length, whilst still leaving an adequate reserve. As with the 505, I was most pleasantly surprised at the lightness of the recoil, no normally constituted hunter would be worried by it in the slightest. I found it a most accurate cartridge and killed several elephant, rhino and buffalo with it, but cannot find any record of the numbers shot; all I can remember is, that no beast got away from me when I was using any one of these three 500's, I killed all I shot. It's an immensely powerful weapon.
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You certainly did, the most surprising thing about this .505 is the recoil as I expected, but not how severe it is, rather how manageable it is. I won't ever describe it as modest or soft, but I cannot describe it as brutal, shocking, fearsome, or any other exciting adjectives. What it has taught me so far is that once you step out into true recoil it starts to not matter so much whether it's 70ft-lbs or 110ft-lbs of recoil. Don't get me wrong, it is well beyond .375, and even stoutly beyond the .450 and .470. It just seems they kick, your mind accepts that fact, and you go on with plain old shooting as with any rifle. That realization was startling, not the recoil. It helps that 100ft-lb class recoil is still within reason and doesn't knock a fellow over or anything so dramatic, in fact, it looks pretty dull as I watched my shooting partner take a turn.

Here's the .505 at the height of its recoil with me at the controls, freeze framed the peak of the muzzle's rise. You're still square to the target, still eyes on the target, and both hands in place. It was a bit of a let down, but it really should be very encouraging.

 
Hey Angus, I've heard the 585 T-rex is just what you're looking for...........pretty much unmanageable...............My 450 Ackley produced 93 ft/lbs of free recoil and although fairly obnoxious, in no way uncontrollable. It would with great regularity remove both shooting glasses and ear muffs. That was shooting 500 gn bullets at 2550 fps from a roughly 10 lb rifle. The 470 shooting 500 gn bullets at 2160 from a 10 1/4 lb rifle is downright pleasant in comparison, and in the short double rifle where the weight is between the hands it is very pleasant and very controllable.
I still want and will one day purchase a .577 NE double rifle, it is the "crème de la crème" of double stopping rifles in my opinion. I have fired one and did not find it uncontrollable either, the Holland double it was in weighed close to 14 lbs IIRC and again placed the weight between the hands. I fired 6 rounds and was quite pleasantly surprised by the lack of violence it perpetrated on me...........of course it was a $50K rifle and balanced and mounted beautifully for me.
 
c-fbmi said:
Hey Angus, I've heard the 585 T-rex is just what you're looking for...........pretty much unmanageable...............My 450 Ackley produced 93 ft/lbs of free recoil and although fairly obnoxious, in no way uncontrollable. It would with great regularity remove both shooting glasses and ear muffs. That was shooting 500 gn bullets at 2550 fps from a roughly 10 lb rifle. The 470 shooting 500 gn bullets at 2160 from a 10 1/4 lb rifle is downright pleasant in comparison, and in the short double rifle where the weight is between the hands it is very pleasant and very controllable.
I still want and will one day purchase a .577 NE double rifle, it is the "crème de la crème" of double stopping rifles in my opinion. I have fired one and did not find it uncontrollable either, the Holland double it was in weighed close to 14 lbs IIRC and again placed the weight between the hands. I fired 6 rounds and was quite pleasantly surprised by the lack of violence it perpetrated on me...........of course it was a $50K rifle and balanced and mounted beautifully for me.
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Hey, if you're going to be in Whitehorse next summer, bring that .450 along, I'd love to try it! Guns International has a Westly Richards .577, located in Oklahoma, up for $65K. (GI#: 100299548):stirthepot2: Makes the John Wilkes .500 I was offered for $40K look right affordable.
 
c-fbmi said:
Hey Angus, I've heard the 585 T-rex is just what you're looking for...........pretty much unmanageable...............My 450 Ackley produced 93 ft/lbs of free recoil and although fairly obnoxious, in no way uncontrollable. It would with great regularity remove both shooting glasses and ear muffs. That was shooting 500 gn bullets at 2550 fps from a roughly 10 lb rifle. The 470 shooting 500 gn bullets at 2160 from a 10 1/4 lb rifle is downright pleasant in comparison, and in the short double rifle where the weight is between the hands it is very pleasant and very controllable.
I still want and will one day purchase a .577 NE double rifle, it is the "crème de la crème" of double stopping rifles in my opinion. I have fired one and did not find it uncontrollable either, the Holland double it was in weighed close to 14 lbs IIRC and again placed the weight between the hands. I fired 6 rounds and was quite pleasantly surprised by the lack of violence it perpetrated on me...........of course it was a $50K rifle and balanced and mounted beautifully for me.
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You'd certainly get to "smack" levels of recoil at those velocities, you know a dozen times better than I but your .470 is downright comfortable despite burning a hundred grains of powder. The .450 is faster, and has more bite. Your .470 is actually likely the most pleasing gun to shoot of all of them here, I hand loaded some heavy .375 and it's sharper on the recoil impulse even, less recoil, but sharper. If there's one thing I'm definitely seeing it's I need a .470, what a lovely cartridge and set up in a double. Everything here, right up to stick's sub-10lb .505, is nicer to shoot than a Rem LSS .375 Ultra I owned years ago. That gun was light and recoil was sharp and rather nasty. These big guys just thump, the .505 hits you alright, but nothing at a all offensive.

N-L, no not at all! Just BOOM and you roll with it, cycle and fire again.
 
Oh you lean in for sure, my partner is not small either at a young and thick 290lbs, and he staggered back once and had to catch himself when firing a snap shot. It comes instinctively though, you put a foot forward get behind the rifle and let it go. You end up in a roughly upright stance. If fired like a .300 Mag, you could push yourself off balance, but if you're behind the gun it's a non-event. I even bought a PAST recoil shield for shooting it, and we forgot to wear it, slight bruise the following morning but no different than a long .375 practice session.
 
You need a 460 Wby to throw into the mix. I've shot (not owned) some bigger guns; a 505 Gibbs, 577 NE, 378 Wby, 404, 470 NE, the 416's.......... none had the obnoxious punch of the 460. Maybe it was just the rifle/stock but that one was truly annoying to shoot.
 
Yep, if loaded to full potential the 460 is more than a little ugly...............Factory used to be 2700 fps with 500s but they have since backed this down to 2550 as bullet performance was too erratic at 2700 and the solids of the day were not handling the velocity well. The 460 is capable of driving 600 gn bullets at over 2400 fps..............We're talking REAL fun now................But as we all know, rifle weight and stock design is critical when shooting the heavies, perceived recoil can be much worse than the numbers would indicate with a light rifle with a poorly designed stock.............Had a #1 in 458 that was fairly ugly, too much drop in the stock, too small a butt crossection and a tad light, and let's not forget that wonderful Ruger hockey puck recoil pad.
 
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Indeed on the .460, I'll have to hand load the .450 Rigby to all but a hair shy of .460 level just to try it. The .450's case is 95% of the .460's, 133.1grs H20 for the .450 and 141.1grs for the .460. I imagine I'll be able to get the experience out of the .450, which while the Superior loads we have are warm, is nowhere near its potential in production trim.
 
Very interesting read, Ardent, but while you may feel let down, your experience is actually a very good indication of your skill and familiarity with marksmanship. Someone like myself, who has vastly less trigger time, would likely find himself experiencing all the deficiencies of form that you avoided. I'd also say that your experience has very much to do with how well those rifles must fit you and your partner. I think I mentioned to you that I had a similar sense of "let down" when I touched off my first 338WM in a rifle that fits me very well --- it was not significantly different than my 30-06, and had me thinking of moving onto the 338WM as my main rifle.

I'd look at this as a real opportunity: your comfort with this class of cartridge/rifle means that you'll be inclined to practice more and enjoy the shooting experience, which will lead to them feeling like second nature when you're on one of your incredible hunts. It also pushes the horizon forward for what might interest you as a big bore that is still practical for use.

I'm looking forward to hearing about theses surprises in the spruce tests!
 
The 470 is just so much fun to shoot. Mine has been shot by a smaller woman and older men and everyone liked it except the guy who harped the triggers and took both barrels. It is highly addictive. I felt the same as you describe about each rifle I've bought as I move up the line.

I'm shooting 375 hh, 470ne, 338 lapua, 50bmg. The only rifle that ever bothered me is not on the list. It was a rem700 custom shop 300 wm, very light and off the bench. That one was admitedly no fun to shoot. I was really happy that the 470 is so comfortable to shoot, I do suspect there will be a .50 safari rifle in the stable soon though.

Funny, Taylor describes his friends impression of the Jeffery and then adds at the end of the story that he enjoyed shooting it prone
 
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