.45 vs 9mm - The debate is over, say the Experts

Nestor said:
Funny how often the idea of "new bullets" pops up in any caliber related discussion. Thing is that in most SHTF situations, most people will only have access to the old, good FMJs. Now, tell me that 9mm is still as good as .45
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I won't tell you it's as good as 45 or 40, I will tell you it's better, it's easier to shoot more accurately and faster and 9mm guns holds more rounds. More rounds, more options. The heart or brain doesn't care, a hole in the right spot is a hole in the right spot.
 
I have an entire briefcase of that line of ammunition in all its iterations from black talons to the SXT to the Ranger-T.

Yes there are little differences in each line.

Unfortunately I only have 1 box of actual black talons left.
This is the round that was discontinuted/changed because media hype back in the day claimed its black teflon coating made it armour piercing, and this is the round that gave us the "Cop kiler," bullet nickname. None which was true, but they had to change it because of that image.

As such it instantly became a collectors item.
Had no idea prices are up that high already.
 
r34skyline said:
I won't tell you it's as good as 45 or 40, I will tell you it's better, it's easier to shoot more accurately and faster and 9mm guns holds more rounds. More rounds, more options. The heart or brain doesn't care, a hole in the right spot is a hole in the right spot.
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Well, good luck with those hearts and brains. Try some FX training where the target shoot back at you while moving and tell us how easy it was. If you can't shoot 45 as good as 9 (which is not that unusual) you should challenge yourself to work on improving your skills instead of going easy on yourself.
 
Nestor said:
Well, good luck with those hearts and brains. Try some FX training where the target shoot back at you while moving and tell us how easy it was. If you can't shoot 45 as good as 9 (which is not that unusual) you should challenge yourself to work on improving your skills instead of going easy on yourself.
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Nobody can shoot 45 as well as 9. It's basic physics, and whatever else you can break, you cannot beat or break the laws of physics, 45 has a harder hitting recoil impulse, so if you can shoot 45 well, you can shoot 9 better still. You can try and justify and argue all you like, but you can't beat physics. And even if you have achieved some mythical level of control with your 45(at which point you can shoot 9 for arguements sake as well as 45) you still lose on capacity. More bullets more options. The end
 
Nestor said:
More bullets? I don't know what reality are you living in, but it's not a valid argument in Canada. Excuses, excuses and more excuses. Yup. Not surprising really.
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You were talking about SHTF situations were you not? Tell me who is planning on running newtered mags in those situations? Stay consistent to your context. I see that you have no other valid argument so you resorted to saying excuses repeatedly as if it validates what you are saying. But hey you want to handicap yourself with a round that doesn't do anything a 9mm doesn't do and holds on average 3-5 rounds less in a mag, go nuts, it's your life after all. Then again the way you are talking looks like you will be down 7 or 8 rounds a mag.
 
whatever you practice with and kind draw blind and still get fast hits with,...I think I would say 9mm at +p velocities or 40 at major velocities. I think knowing your gun is more important.
 
Some of you sound like you are going to be taking on the entire Hell's angels single handedly. Just how many rounds do you think you are going to need? If you use a 45 at least you won't have to double tap so you could probably do without the bandoleer and the 20 or so 15 round mags you seem to feel the need for:p
 
dogzilla said:
Some of you sound like you are going to be taking on the entire Hell's angels single handedly. Just how many rounds do you think you are going to need? If you use a 45 at least you won't have to double tap so you could probably do without the bandoleer and the 20 or so 15 round mags you seem to feel the need for:p
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Why don't you ask anyone that has ever had to do business with a gun be it long gun or handgun that ever complained about having too many rounds. Hate to break facts to you, but you very well might need to double tap with 45 as well. Both will do the job, one recoils harder and holds less ammo. Kind of a no brainer what the correct choice is for practical reasons.

Now for our application of range toy, no none of this matters buy whatever you want. Hell go full out with a deagle and its 50ae. Out of necessity wise 22lr will poke holes in paper and make steel ring too. For a paper puncher run whatever you want, you want something for practical defensive purposes 9 does everything that 45 does for less cost of ammo and parts and with more bullets available in the mag if something does happen.

On a completely unrelated note that is a beautiful dog(husky?).
 
r34skyline said:
You were talking about SHTF situations were you not? Tell me who is planning on running newtered mags in those situations? Stay consistent to your context. I see that you have no other valid argument so you resorted to saying excuses repeatedly as if it validates what you are saying. But hey you want to handicap yourself with a round that doesn't do anything a 9mm doesn't do and holds on average 3-5 rounds less in a mag, go nuts, it's your life after all. Then again the way you are talking looks like you will be down 7 or 8 rounds a mag.
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You are the one who looks for excuses to compensate for the lack of skills or willingness to even build them bud.
 
Petamocto said:
I'm not so sure that's the case, and it has to do with the false premise that the 45 is some sort of hard hitter.

Truth be told, the 45 is so big and slow that it's actually easier to shoot than something that's snappy, or actually a hard round like a 10mm or 44 Magnum.

The 45 is actually easier to shoot than a 9mm, because it's such a slow push.
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The above has been my experience. the .45 has a gentle push the 9mm has more of a snap. Now this is with basic factory ammo. When you get into these +P+ rounds in the 9mm I'm guessing it is more like a .357 Mag than the origional 9mm. So the benefit of less recoil is long gone. As is the low cost of the 9mm white box "crap" ammo. This hollow point +P+ ammo has to cost a lot more. And the higher pressure of the +P+ ammo will be harder on equipment especially if the gun has to shoot the white box and the +P+ stuff. Of course you can't pack as many rounds of .45 into a gun as you can 9mm so you can't argue that benefit.
 
Shoot some swinging steel plates with your 9mm and your .45 and then tell me about the gentle push of the .45 compared to the snap of the 9mm!
 
fdc said:
Shoot some swinging steel plates with your 9mm and your .45 and then tell me about the gentle push of the .45 compared to the snap of the 9mm!
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Or bowling pins,for that matter.... but I really think he ment the 45 being more gentle at the senders end ( my experience, too) , of course a bullet almost twice the weight won't be gentle at the receiving end.
CG
 
r34skyline said:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Other collected info shows all of the big 3 handgun rounds need 2+ rounds to get the job done. If you look at ballistic energy most 9mm, 40, 45 is hovering 350-400ftlb of energy, with some hotter loads going up to 450-500ftlbs

As far as buddies chips are down nothing touches the 12 gauge, if you look at shotgun and rifle they are both very close in performance on statistics, and if you want to be specific about numbers there are plenty rifle calibers that will make a 12 gauge its b****
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In a home defence situation I think the 12 gauge is the ticket. A good hand gun will go through the house and hit maybe your neighbour or his house/car. The shotgun might make a hell of a mess of the exterior wall but I doubt it would go through your wall and the next door neighbours as well. In a home defence situation you do not want to kill or injure an innocent. That is why I have a 12 gauge with 000 shells and slugs, but the slugs would do a lot of damage as noted above. My 12 gauge of choice is a Defender.
 
Nestor said:
You are the one who looks for excuses to compensate for the lack of skills or willingness to even build them bud.
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As opposed to you admitting you can't put your shots in the right place and compensating for your ####ty shooting by going to a larger caliber in hopes it gives you a more effective system(which it doesn't), I think it's pretty obvious who here is making excuses. P.S. if you haven't figured it out that would be you.

I pointed out basic facts, which somehow translated to excuses to you. Then again the lack of logic I see around here sometimes does surprise me so I guess your lack of deductive skills shouldn't surprise me anymore.

rustynut1 said:
In a home defence situation I think the 12 gauge is the ticket. A good hand gun will go through the house and hit maybe your neighbour or his house/car. The shotgun might make a hell of a mess of the exterior wall but I doubt it would go through your wall and the next door neighbours as well. In a home defence situation you do not want to kill or injure an innocent. That is why I have a 12 gauge with 000 shells and slugs, but the slugs would do a lot of damage as noted above. My 12 gauge of choice is a Defender.
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That depends on how you look at it, my choice is a 5.56 carbine, works well for kicking doors, would work equally well when someone is trying to kick in my door. But you are correct a 12 gauge with a decent buckshot load would also do the trick quite well. Apparently heavier birdshot loads would also do well against unarmoured intruders in tight indoor confines. I would figure for ballistic pretty much any centerfire long gun beats a handgun.
 
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I'm all for defending my family but a 5.56 used as described is pretty irresponsible by my books. That round penetrates way too much. Any centre fire rifle round does doesn't it?
 
fdc said:
I'm all for defending my family but a 5.56 used as described is pretty irresponsible by my books. That round penetrates way too much. Any centre fire rifle round does doesn't it?
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You might be surprised. I have seen tests where pistol rounds penetrated drywall much better than fmj 5.56mm.
 
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