.45 vs 9mm - The debate is over, say the Experts

[r34skyline]

I'm all for defending my family but a 5.56 used as described is pretty irresponsible by my books. That round penetrates way too much. Any centre fire rifle round does doesn't it?

Not if you load it with a soft point lead core. something like 55 grain ballistic silvertips. Light bullets lose energy fast and if it fragments it will lose it faster still. If you load it with something like a 77 grain ap round then yes you are going to have a more barrier blind round with overpenetration issues.

 

[misanthropist]

You might be surprised. I have seen tests where pistol rounds penetrated drywall much better than fmj 5.56mm.

Properly selected 5.56 definitely reduces your chances of overpenetration. I'd rather use lightweight TAP etc than a heavy 9mm.

If I hated my neighbours, I guess I'd just load up the shotgun with slugs. But they're cool, so lightweight bullets will have to do.

 

[fdc]

Downloading my 5.56 is not something I would have thought of! Personally I see the various calibres in a continuum and would use them as conditions applied.

I am not a ballistics expert but if the 9mm has a max chamber pressure of say 36000 PSI and a gel penetration of around 34 cm, how much would you have to download a 5.56 with a max chamber pressure of 62000 PSI and a penetration of 38 to 51 cm? I understand that my numbers are rough and ready and I chose max pressures because these were easy numbers to find.

Of course bullets can be frangible etc but say we use frangible in both calibers. What kind of PSI would you be able to load a 5.56 to that would get it anywhere close to a 9mm?

 

[Still alive]

Waaay off thread! .45 vs. 9mm now becomes 5.56? Which, incidentally, is 3.44mm smaller than a 9mm. Also, for you guys proposing a rifle as a home defense, shoot through drywall gun, have you tried manuevering a rifle in your hallway in the dark half awake? And what about the noise and muzzle flash esp if you have a brake or comp on it? You will be so disoriented yourself, any follow up shots will probably miss the target! I've seen wide awake competitors miss a standard IPSC target at 7yds in bright daylight with an AR so I can't imagine the same thing in the dark will be any easier!

 

[misanthropist]

Waaay off thread! .45 vs. 9mm now becomes 5.56? Which, incidentally, is 3.44mm smaller than a 9mm. Also, for you guys proposing a rifle as a home defense, shoot through drywall gun, have you tried manuevering a rifle in your hallway in the dark half awake? And what about the noise and muzzle flash esp if you have a brake or comp on it? You will be so disoriented yourself, any follow up shots will probably miss the target! I've seen wide awake competitors miss a standard IPSC target at 7yds in bright daylight with an AR so I can't imagine the same thing in the dark will be any easier!

Just because other people's parents were raised in the same household doesn't mean I have to wear velcro shoes.

 

[Still alive]

Just because other people's parents were raised in the same household doesn't mean I have to wear velcro shoes.

Huh?

 

[r34skyline]

Downloading my 5.56 is not something I would have thought of! Personally I see the various calibres in a continuum and would use them as conditions applied.

I am not a ballistics expert but if the 9mm has a max chamber pressure of say 36000 PSI and a gel penetration of around 34 cm, how much would you have to download a 5.56 with a max chamber pressure of 62000 PSI and a penetration of 38 to 51 cm? I understand that my numbers are rough and ready and I chose max pressures because these were easy numbers to find.

Of course bullets can be frangible etc but say we use frangible in both calibers. What kind of PSI would you be able to load a 5.56 to that would get it anywhere close to a 9mm?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE

For overpen the 5.56 penetrates one sheet of drywall more in this test, or what I would call statistically insignificant for the gain in terminal ballistics and the amount energy 5.56 would dump on target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE

In this instance 9mm penetrated further, keep in mind this utilized a heavier 64 grain projectile.

Waaay off thread! .45 vs. 9mm now becomes 5.56? Which, incidentally, is 3.44mm smaller than a 9mm. Also, for you guys proposing a rifle as a home defense, shoot through drywall gun, have you tried manuevering a rifle in your hallway in the dark half awake? And what about the noise and muzzle flash esp if you have a brake or comp on it? You will be so disoriented yourself, any follow up shots will probably miss the target! I've seen wide awake competitors miss a standard IPSC target at 7yds in bright daylight with an AR so I can't imagine the same thing in the dark will be any easier!

That's why you put ear pros on the bedside cabinet. And I have swung my mossberg 590 about the house with its 20inch barrel. and I have also swung my 11.5inch bcm around the house, I can tell you right now which one is easier to maneuver in close. Having shot at indoor ranges I would imagine none of them would be pleasant to discharge inside a house.

 

[Bigfoot 870]

Different argument guys...............go make your own sandwich.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

Properly selected 5.56 definitely reduces your chances of overpenetration. I'd rather use lightweight TAP etc than a heavy 9mm.

If I hated my neighbours, I guess I'd just load up the shotgun with slugs. But they're cool, so lightweight bullets will have to do.

Btw....223 Rem in an AR-15 platform would be awesome in the USA for home defense....a Colt LE 6933 with 11.5" bbl and 30-round mags loaded with Speer LE 64 grain GDHP......Amazing .223 Rem ammo for defense...they are 64 grain Gold Dot Hollow Points....google them and view images of expanded rounds....wow, they peel back like a banana lol

 

[Still alive]

That's why you put ear pros on the bedside cabinet. And I have swung my mossberg 590 about the house with its 20inch barrel. and I have also swung my 11.5inch bcm around the house, I can tell you right now which one is easier to maneuver in close. Having shot at indoor ranges I would imagine none of them would be pleasant to discharge inside a house.

Ahead of you with the ear protection. I have also swung a 20" Mossberg and a SBR around and I think a pistol with a light is still the best option indoors. All bets are off outdoors.
Either way, you will face a sh!tload of charges, be it a handgun or a long gun.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

Ammo selection is VERY Important. In selecting 9mm Luger there is a massive difference between 115 gr FMJ and using 147 gr. +P+ JHP. Same with .45 ACP between ball ammo standard pressure and Underwood 230 grain. +P Gold Dot HP @ 1,000 fps.

Ammo selection and shot placement. For 9mm in the "field" I would select lighter faster 115 gr. FMJ @ 1,300 fps....for home defense up close the heavier 147 grain +P+ Gold Dot HP @ 1,171 fps Underwood Brand will knock your socks off.


Look up Underwwod Premium +P ammo.....wow. A .45 ACP spitting out 230 grain slugs at 1,000 fps is HOT. Standard +P 230 grain is rated at 950 fps....Underwoods is at 1,000. Even their 9mm 147 +P load....standard is 1,000 to 1,050 fps.....Underwoods is rated at 1,171 fps. Their 9mm +P+ 115 grain is rated at a Sizzling 1,400 fps. Would be awesome to use in Colt SMG 9mm with 11.5" bbl to keep the velocity up to specs...not some 3" sub compact G26 or something. A Beretta Storm in 9mm would be a perfect candidate.

I would LOVE to run that Underwood 45 Auto +P 230 grain GDHP @ 1,000 fps out of an HK MARK 23 with match grade 5.9" barrel and long sight radius....with 5 boxes of ammo at Silverdale outdoor 100/200 yard range. 100 yards with that setup would be super fun.....I would bet consistent centre mass hits at 100 yards and even some nice hits at 200 yards.

 

[misanthropist]

Huh?

I don't care if other people are too dim to run an AR effectively. Their abilities don't have any effect on my abilities.

 

[r34skyline]

I don't care if other people are too dim to run an AR effectively. Their abilities don't have any effect on my abilities.

Why does cgn not have a like button. This right here ^^^

 

[fdc]

Different argument guys...............go make your own sandwich.

Honestly, you're drawn into a 9 vs .45 thread and this one is going off the rails according to you. Why not let this thread take it's course and you can use the search feature to find the purist's 9/45 thread?

 

[Dr.K]

I've shot a few Ipsc club matches and only shoot pistols for sport. To me it's going through cardboard and caliber is a moot point. Cheaper is better. I talked to a nam vet who was in private security now and was asked to be on the test team for the prototype of the m&p. This is what he told me. "I carry a 9mm and have a .40 in the house" Huh? Why? He stated that in the field 9mm is like a cap gun and if he shoots 15 rds down range its more effective and easier to get hits in the heat of the moment. When at home during an invasion you only get 2-5 shots off. In that case bigger is better and his .40 acts very similar to the 9mm he trains on regularly. Weird. But that is what he told me.

 

[Bigfoot 870]

Honestly, you're drawn into a 9 vs .45 thread and this one is going off the rails according to you. Why not let this thread take it's course and you can use the search feature to find the purist's 9/45 thread?

A pistol thread, turns into a rifle thread and you think I'm wrong for pointing that out...........give me a break

 

[fdc]

A pistol thread, turns into a rifle thread and you think I'm wrong for pointing that out...........give me a break

9 vs .45 threads always come down to "stopping power" threads just as this one has. Pistol turns into shotgun and carbine discussion every time. Go ahead, take a break you deserve it!

 

[Boomer]

I like the idea of the 1911 in .45, but in a fight, the argument in favor of twice as much ammo per magazine can't be ignored. Limit me to 10 rounds and I'll choose the .45, but with 17 rounds of 9mm in your magazines, you have a better chance of fighting your way back to your rifle.

 

[Bigfoot 870]

9 vs .45 threads always come down to "stopping power" threads just as this one has. Pistol turns into shotgun and carbine discussion every time. Go ahead, take a break you deserve it!

Thanks for the info. A newbie like me can sure learn a lot from a veteran like you............

 

[One Lung Wonder]

LOL.

I dunno why these things need to turn into a dog fight. There are two ways to kill with bullets: big and slow vs. small and fast. Both are capable of doing the job. Reading Police One...I have to laugh at the cop that switched from 45 to 9mm because he ran into a bulletproof perp. The way I figure it - is if you are worried about bullet proof gorillas...stop mucking around and do it right: go to either the .41 or .44 magnum and blow that sumb*tch up!

The studies I saw compiled from FBI stats in the US were definitive and derived from the real world autopsy results: the two calibers are literally tied - with the 9mm leading by about 2~3%. Because all such studies carry a standard margin of error of 2~3% - call it a tie. Any "expert" that tells you that one or the other is clearly superior - is in all probability a turd polisher who hasn't done his homework. I shoot the 45 and love it but I'm not stuck on it. The fact is that nothing beats an afternoon at the rod and gun club with elegant Luger and a box of 9mm. It's a perfect round for the ladies and kids that might object to the 45 too. If the 9mm is your cup of tea smile and drink it! As for me, I will drink the Koolaid, poured personally by St. Cooper and St. JM Browning! As that Youtubing Texan likes to say - Life is good!