.45 vs 9mm - The debate is over, say the Experts

We do have a ten shot mag law, for the given pistol, however, the law does allow one to switch to a different ten shot mag (I.e. So 12 or 13 9mm rounds will fit in a .40 S&W ten shot mag), so as quickly as capacity doesn't apply, whap, it applies :) :)

Not being much of a pistol guy, I was just curious, other than the 92/96 mags, what other common .40 mags will feed 9 reliably?
 
What if the mag's in a pouch? Rounds still liable to fall out?

If jarred or banged on, possibly yes! Original Glock mags are best as they have the metal reinforcement. If my life depended on this, I won't do it. Murphy's Law and all. For sh!ts and giggles on the range, then go for it!
IIRC, you're somewhere in S. America, correct? Do they not allow normal mag caps where you are?
 
If jarred or banged on, possibly yes! Original Glock mags are best as they have the metal reinforcement. If my life depended on this, I won't do it. Murphy's Law and all. For sh!ts and giggles on the range, then go for it!
IIRC, you're somewhere in S. America, correct? Do they not allow normal mag caps where you are?

Yep... In Chile for another 3-4 weeks, then coming home for half a year to a year and then we'll see but I will be keeping a few guns in these parts too :) Yes, they allow standard and high capacity mags.. They also allow you to have a gun or two (max) to defend your home or business. However, the laws are generally tighter and another thing that sucks is that they don't allow semiauto centerfire rifles or military calibres like x45 and x39. Some highlights...

Bad: As a sport shooter, I'm limited to 6 guns (can get more with special permission but it's a hassle - also costs $$$ to register each gun and gotta pay up every 5 years)
Bad: Ammo restrictions (in general 1000rds per calibre, 3000 for shotshells), gotta get a special permit to reload
Bad: Pricing - due to high import duties and complicated process, everything (gun and non-gun related) is about 2-3 times more expensive than in Canada

Good: Their version of the CFO is more open to shooting advocacy groups' initiatives, so there is a good chance that they'll legalize semiauto centerfire rifles and adopt an unCanadian CCW policies
Good: While the clubs cost a few more bucks, they offer a lot more for it - $400 a year, we get 15 action ranges and can practice even when there's a match going on
Good: Considering getting a Saiga-12 for both competition and home defence ;)
 
Yep... In Chile for another 3-4 weeks, then coming home for half a year to a year and then we'll see but I will be keeping a few guns in these parts too :) Yes, they allow standard and high capacity mags.. They also allow you to have a gun or two (max) to defend your home or business. However, the laws are generally tighter and another thing that sucks is that they don't allow semiauto centerfire rifles or military calibres like x45 and x39. Some highlights...

Bad: As a sport shooter, I'm limited to 6 guns (can get more with special permission but it's a hassle - also costs $$$ to register each gun and gotta pay up every 5 years)
Bad: Ammo restrictions (in general 1000rds per calibre, 3000 for shotshells), gotta get a special permit to reload
Bad: Pricing - due to high import duties and complicated process, everything (gun and non-gun related) is about 2-3 times more expensive than in Canada

Good: Their version of the CFO is more open to shooting advocacy groups' initiatives, so there is a good chance that they'll legalize semiauto centerfire rifles and adopt an unCanadian CCW policies
Good: While the clubs cost a few more bucks, they offer a lot more for it - $400 a year, we get 15 action ranges and can practice even when there's a match going on
Good: Considering getting a Saiga-12 for both competition and home defence ;)

Great info! What are the storage laws? Can you keep the Saiga and other guns for that matter there when you are back here?
Given that self defense is permitted there, what is a typical LE response to a justifiable shooting?
 
Great info! What are the storage laws? Can you keep the Saiga and other guns for that matter there when you are back here?
Given that self defense is permitted there, what is a typical LE response to a justifiable shooting?

Basically, the main concern is keeping the guns away from the unlicensed. So if they're under my direct control or locked away from my wife, it's all good. Now, for extended trips the cops offer up to 2 months free storage service but it's not an absolute necessity, plus the security is not that much of a concern in our building with 24hr, reliable concierge/video security even though the general crime rate is on the par with the US. One possible snag would be keeping my papers up to date and I will have to verify that with the embassy, whether I'll need to fly back to renew my national ID card without which I can't do anything. The cops are pretty reasonable when it comes to self-defence, especially now that there has been an increase in violent crime (which will make getting better access to CCW permits possible), plus a cop recently got killed by a shotgun-wielding robber, while off-duty, so I don't think there is going to be much sympathy for scumbags.
 
We do have a ten shot mag law, for the given pistol, however, the law does allow one to switch to a different ten shot mag (I.e. So 12 or 13 9mm rounds will fit in a .40 S&W ten shot mag), so as quickly as capacity doesn't apply, whap, it applies :) :)


Careful, criminal code of Canada states ten shots for handgun, period, a couple of rare exceptions stated in the code. Bulletin 72 is poorly written and implies you can shoot more. It is wrong and not law, the CC is. Yes you can get more rounds of 9mm in a .40 mag, the admendment was written to prevent the .40 mag from becoming a prohibited device since you can physically put in 13 rounds of 9mm. However as soon as you fire 13 rounds, you are ####ed, you just committed a Criminal Code offence. If you have deep pockets for lawyers or follow the advice of the gunnutz lawyers, Your'e a braver man than me:p
 
^^^ Is this true?
I always thought the 13 into 10 for 9mm thing was in the same category as the 15 into 5 thing for ARs and treated the same way in the eyes of the law?
Am I wrong?

Last time I looked they had changed the wording on the RCMP website regarding what the mag is designed for regardless of what you put in it. I'm not sure how it would play out if you got stopped by an officer and had to explain why you were using a magazine that held 15 rounds of 223 in your rifle and why you think it's legal. Without being able to reference their own site now I don't know what legal leg you would have to stand on.
 
Last time I looked they had changed the wording on the RCMP website regarding what the mag is designed for regardless of what you put in it. I'm not sure how it would play out if you got stopped by an officer and had to explain why you were using a magazine that held 15 rounds of 223 in your rifle and why you think it's legal. Without being able to reference their own site now I don't know what legal leg you would have to stand on.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bulletins/bus-ent/20110323-72-eng.htm

5. Magazines for semiautomatic handguns which contain more than ten (10) rounds of a different calibre

Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity.

Example:
Heckler and Koch P7 pistol chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
The magazine designed for the 40 S&W calibre variant of the pistol will hold 13 cartridges of 9mm Luger calibre and function in the 9mm Luger calibre P7 pistol. This is permissible as the maximum permitted capacity of the 40 S&W calibre magazine must be measured by the number of 40 S&W calibre cartridges it is capable of holding, which is 10 such cartridges in the case of the HK P7 pistol magazine.


Careful, criminal code of Canada states ten shots for handgun, period, a couple of rare exceptions stated in the code. Bulletin 72 is poorly written and implies you can shoot more. It is wrong and not law, the CC is. Yes you can get more rounds of 9mm in a .40 mag, the admendment was written to prevent the .40 mag from becoming a prohibited device since you can physically put in 13 rounds of 9mm. However as soon as you fire 13 rounds, you are ####ed, you just committed a Criminal Code offence.

What the CC actually says:

3. (1) Any cartridge magazine

.....
(b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
 
Pictures!

I couldn't take the time to funnel my way through the 20 pages or so. But a 9mm vs 45 argument is almost as good as a "what oil is best for my motorcyle" thread. So as Obama's chief hitman, Rahm Emanual says, why let a perfectly good crisis go to waste; why let a perfectly good argument go to waste. I will stir the pot a bit just to resurrect things.

The OP referenced a bunch of experts; the issue is generally whether one is better armed for self defense with one caliber or another. So with that in mind, some scanned stuff to throw into the mix:

termin10.jpg


In no particular order: 38 Spl, 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. All pictures to scale.

All bullets of common weights in the service calibers, no heavyweights/lightweights, 45 ACP being the only +P loading.

All penetrated 12" - 14" after being fired through IWBA heavy clothing. So which one is from the 45 ACP and which one is from the 9mm?

Hint: the bullet with the largest mean diameter is not the 45 ACP, and the bullet with the smallest mean diameter is not the 9mm.

And, some of the current marketing information regarding terminal ballistics currently being distributed by ATK and Winchester:

captur10.jpg


captur11.jpg


Drs Fackler (who I think we owe many of the improvements to, and who died about six months ago) and Roberts tested the Federal ammunition at the top about two or three years ago, except they tested the +P .45 ACP variant against that same standard pressure 9mm load. No pictures, but...

9 mm Fed 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1005 fps:
Bare gelatin: Pen = 14.0, RD = 0.65, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.6
4 layer denim: Pen = 16.5, RD = 0.60, RL = 0.53, RW = 147.5
.45 Fed 230 gr +P HST (P45HST1) at 936 fps:
Bare gelatin: Pen = 13.8, RD = 0.82, RL = 0.42, RW = 231.2
4 layer denim: Pen = 14.5, RD = 0.76, RL = 0.50, RW = 234.4​

I suppose you can run around cherrypicking testing at any given ballistics seminar the way some hunters agonize over bullets as they compare ballistic coefficients. As I see it, the chance that an inch more or less of penetration, or a tenth of an inch more or less in bullet diameter, is going to make a difference is pretty much zero. That's before you even get to relative magazine capacities, recovery times, or whatever other metric you want to use. Even if only one shot goes where it is supposed to, rather than multiple shots.

For me, I no longer see any evidence that a different caliber and/or +P loads will offer performance improvements over a 9mm with premium service ammunition. The terminal performance of all the common service calibers with current service ammunition is remarkably consistent.

Living in Montana, I can and do carry there. After noodling around looking at this stuff for a while, I've settled on the standard pressure Federal HST 147 grain load. I would not lose any sleep if I were told I could only use Winchester Ranger or Speer Gold Dot, as far as that goes. In fact, I wouldn't lose any sleep if I was restricted for some reason or other to a 38 Spl with Federal or Winchester ammunition. All have gotten extremely positive comments from the scores of OIS reviews that all have been involved in since coming on the market. It is hard to find a negative review (other than price and availability for those who have to source and buy their own). I do have a couple of BHPs in 40 S&W and a Dan Wesson Classic Commander Bobtail in 10mm, incidentally, so it's not like I don't have various versions of heavier bullets going faster available to choose from.

There are a lot of people who still fervently believe that the only reason you should be carrying a .45 is because they don't make a .46, or that if the bullets leaving your carry gun aren't doing 1300 fps or better then you aren't really armed. For those people, the market has offerings that will make them feel confident in their choices. But the reality is, there are a good number of 9mm rounds that are not even +P, much less +P+, that have proven to be reliable and effective performers, that give nothing away to those choosing to carry their version of the nuclear option.

Double Tap, Underwood, Buffalo Bore, etc do make a good living selling self defense ammunition with the same or similar bullets loaded to the ragged edge of pressure safety. I am glad that those who need that itch scratched can get it done, but I don't really think they are getting any improvement. I'm not surprised when testing that ammunition under IWBA protocols results in degraded performance - the bullet is engineered for performance in a velocity envelope, and once you leave the reservation all bets are off. But nobody in North America ever went broke advertising their ammunition as the highest velocity stuff available.

Other than that, whatever anyone feels scratches their itch and satisfies their beliefs, good for them.

But no, this debate will never end. Especially if you expand intended use beyond self defense to recreational/competition use, which is the vast majority of use even in the US.
 
Anyone who thinks you are not allowed to defend yourself in Canada with a firearm or any other instrument has not read the Criminal Code of Canada. the castle principle applies in Canada as does the right to defend your life.

Larry has to make a living writing and instructing so anything that gets his name in print works. Has here.

Take Care

Bob
 
Old saying, "9mm might expand, but .45 won't shrink"

Old saying that depends on advancing the belief that 9mm only, just maybe, possibly, hopefully, MIGHT expand (although, not likely)... but .45 ACP will never shrink. And of course, ball ammo is just so awesome in any caliber.

Also requires a complete rejection/blindness to what real life is showing in field performance of current 9mm service ammunition, of course. The "old saying" tribe would do better to come up with examples of where 9mm HST, Ranger T, and Gold Dot ammunition actually failed to expand, rather than throwing that circa 1970's line out there 40 years later. It's not like there's been a lack of law enforcement shootings with this ammunition over the time its been issued. Of course, providing those examples would be much, much more difficult to do. The ballistics world and ammunition has changed just a tad in the last four decades. The one liners haven't noticed that yet.

Next, we'll have some 9mm fan countering by throwing out the newest old saying "This isn't your granddad's 9mm". While eagerly pointing out comments by the bullet engineers at Hornady and elsewhere that they have found .45 does not perform as well after passing through intermediate barriers as 9mm, 40 S&W, etc. As though (by way of comparison) the .45 ACP suddenly can't be depended upon to work - when in fact it is every bit as reliable.

If we didn't have fanboys for the big and for the small defending their choices as being superior to the other, the discussion would be much more boring. Where would the fun be without the fanboys?

Still stirring the pot...
 
Larry has to make a living writing and instructing so anything that gets his name in print works. Has here.
True for all gun writers, whatever the subject.

When you've been around for a while reading the gun rags, it is kind of amusing to see how things change. Somewhere around here in the boxes of old mags I open once in a while to riffle through while drinking a scotch to bring back memories, there is an article by Massad Ayoob declaring the then-new Glaser Safety Slug to be the most incredible fight stopper ever. Replete with examples of bad guys stopped simply by the shrapnel of a Glaser hitting a brick wall or concrete sidewalk beside or in front of them. The Glaser is still around now, but Ayoob's endorsements have changed just a tad. I think the sky cops used to be issued Glasers for a while back in the early 80's, but now they carry conventional ammo and I'm not sure anyone issues the Glaser these days.

With the current atmosphere, we now have an entire line of ammunition endorsed by Marcus Luttrell. I'm not sure how much ballistic engineering knowledge he has, how much he looked at or reviewed terminal performance of the ammunition that bears his name, etc... but I bet the guys who buy that ammunition because he is a well known former SEAL won't ask that either.

Ted Nugent endorsed 5.56 ammunition?

Sometimes I think choices of caliber/ammunition are as much about trying saying something about yourself as anything else. Sort of like the ballcap you choose to wear, the cool T-shirt, etc. I am badly out of style because I don't have a single article of camouflage that the military didn't issue me, don't own a single shirt or hat with something gun oriented written on it, and my AR-15s don't have molon labe inscribed on them somewhere. Total lack of dress sense.

But if the firearm/caliber/ammunition does what you expect it to do, and makes you feel good doing it, then you certainly aren't wrong in your choices.
 
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