.45 vs 9mm - The debate is over, say the Experts

I shoot both. Prefer the ease and price of shooting 9mm. However, I love the bigger kick of the .45 and its effect on reactive targets.

Here's an interesting article from a guy who worked in a morgue
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year, and I can tell you that when the chips are down, there's nothing that beats a 12-gauge. As for handguns, the name of the game is not only shot placement but how a properly-placed bullet acts once it gets there. I've seen folks killed by a bb to the eye and others survive after being hit by several well-placed rounds with a 9mm.

As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.

But then, I've seen most everything. I've seen a guy killed by a .416 Rigby, as well as a suicide to the head with a .44 M
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S/W-Lifer, You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.
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I can't tell you how many times I've seen a .380 or 9mm strike bone on a well-placed shot and skip off in a non-vital direction, leaving the BG free to return fire. With the .40 and .45, this seldom happens. Bone is in the body for basically two reasons--to give support as with the legs and spinal column and to protect major organs, such as the ribs protecting the heart or the skull protecting the brain. Skip a bullet off a support bone, such as the leg, and the BG will keep shooting. Break it, like you generally do with a .40 or .45, and the BG is going to hit the pavement and your chances of survival increase dramatically. It's the same with a shot to the chest. Skip a 9mm off the sternum (breastbone) and the fight continues; plow through the sternum with a .45 and, trust me, the fight is over. I'm just convinced that all things being equal, bigger is better when it comes to bullet size.
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Others debate him if you click the link.
 
mr00jimbo said:
I shoot both. Prefer the ease and price of shooting 9mm. However, I love the bigger kick of the .45 and its effect on reactive targets.

Here's an interesting article from a guy who worked in a morgue
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm







Others debate him if you click the link.
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http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Other collected info shows all of the big 3 handgun rounds need 2+ rounds to get the job done. If you look at ballistic energy most 9mm, 40, 45 is hovering 350-400ftlb of energy, with some hotter loads going up to 450-500ftlbs

As far as buddies chips are down nothing touches the 12 gauge, if you look at shotgun and rifle they are both very close in performance on statistics, and if you want to be specific about numbers there are plenty rifle calibers that will make a 12 gauge its b****
 
r34skyline said:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Other collected info shows all of the big 3 handgun rounds need 2+ rounds to get the job done. If you look at ballistic energy most 9mm, 40, 45 is hovering 350-400ftlb of energy, with some hotter loads going up to 450-500ftlbs

As far as buddies chips are down nothing touches the 12 gauge, if you look at shotgun and rifle they are both very close in performance on statistics, and if you want to be specific about numbers there are plenty rifle calibers that will make a 12 gauge its b****
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An oldie but a goodie..

TW25B
 
Funny how often the idea of "new bullets" pops up in any caliber related discussion. Thing is that in most SHTF situations, most people will only have access to the old, good FMJs. Now, tell me that 9mm is still as good as .45
 
Nestor said:
Funny how often the idea of "new bullets" pops up in any caliber related discussion. Thing is that in most SHTF situations, most people will only have access to the old, good FMJs. Now, tell me that 9mm is still as good as .45
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I think in a SHTF scenario the best cartridge will be whatever you can get your hands on. I don't care if it's a 45, a 9 or a 22LR. Given a choice I'd probably go with a 45 auto but they're all better than throwing rocks. ;)
I really don't put much thought into pistols as I would be rockin one of my AR's for 99% of my defense and only using a pistol if I don't have time to throw a fresh mag into my rifle.
 
Somebody was actually putting out a .50 proprietary round in a 1911 frame awhile back that sure looked good!

I've heard you can get into deep legal do-do if you shoot a bad guy with ammo specifically designed to dispatch them. If I recall some sleazy lawyers have been successful in trumping that up into 'premeditation'.

Yannow...the entire Canadian judiciary isn't fit to shine shoes in a cat house! We should have licensed carry up here in Canada too.
 
One Lung Wonder said:
Somebody was actually putting out a .50 proprietary round in a 1911 frame awhile back that sure looked good!

I've heard you can get into deep legal do-do if you shoot a bad guy with ammo specifically designed to dispatch them. If I recall some sleazy lawyers have been successful in trumping that up into 'premeditation
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I think that is more the case if you load your own specific defense round. I have a bunch of 10mm black talon because it was the only ammo available at that particular time, not because I dream of shtf scenarios and zombies
 
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gdawg said:
Yes I heard that too, particularly in the US. I guess it looks bad ass or something
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It's worth no more than newly manufactured Ranger T-series, which is essentially the same basic bullet design, but with tweaks that give better overall performance.


I don't know where you guys have heard that from, but I wouldn't consider these sources "reliable".
 
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There was a CBSA agent at the range last night cranking off 9mm Winchester Ranger T like it was free or something.
From everything I've read about it, it's just updated Black Talon. Getting hit by either one would put a serious crimp in your day.
 
Dietz said:
It's worth no more than newly manufactured Ranger T-series, which is essentially the same basic bullet design, but with tweaks that give better overall performance.


I don't know where you guys have heard that from, but I wouldn't consider these sources "reliable".
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Nope sorry.

Yes, the Ranger - T is the updated design but Black Talon has been fetching a premium because apparently many don't know this, and because BT has some kind of undeserved mythical reputation, it has been discountinued, and probably because its black (yes ridiculous i know). Maybe do a search.

My "source" is Gunbroker - the closed auction items - where 80 rounds of 40S&W went for $280USD and 20 rounds of 10mm went for $65USD. A lot more than what Ranger sells for new. I would say Gunbroker is quite a reliable source given it reflects actual dollars spent. now you know ;-)
 
Proof that some people will pay whatever they perceive the value to be. It doesnt have to be researched or proven by them but hearsay and myth seem to rule. More proof is evident simply looking at some of the gun prices in the EE. Biggest farce is the amount folks are willing to pay for Pythons or members of the snake family even in rough shape they are asking silly amounts. Great for the seller as there are those that believe them to be worth that. Makes me happy too as my snake family values has gone thru the roof but as a buyer I would never pay those amounts. The Black Talons were always perceived to be evil and again after Winchester removed them, there are those who felt that made them more valuable.
dB
 
daBear said:
Proof that some people will pay whatever they perceive the value to be. It doesnt have to be researched or proven by them but hearsay and myth seem to rule. More proof is evident simply looking at some of the gun prices in the EE. Biggest farce is the amount folks are willing to pay for Pythons or members of the snake family even in rough shape they are asking silly amounts. Great for the seller as there are those that believe them to be worth that. Makes me happy too as my snake family values has gone thru the roof but as a buyer I would never pay those amounts. The Black Talons were always perceived to be evil and again after Winchester removed them, there are those who felt that made them more valuable.
dB
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This is particularly evident with the price of the King Cobras. Those guns are not in the same league as the python, were half the price of pythons when new, and people these days seem to be willing to buy them for almost the same price as pythons
 
dirtybarry said:
There was a CBSA agent at the range last night cranking off 9mm Winchester Ranger T like it was free or something.
From everything I've read about it, it's just updated Black Talon. Getting hit by either one would put a serious crimp in your day.
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Probably because for him it is free - and if you saw the police co-op pricing on it you'd likely have a stroke...
 
dirtybarry said:
Ha, yeah I was trying discreetly move some of the nice nickel plated brass my way but there were too many people.
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Just ask him if it's ok to take his brass, tell him you're a reloader, he won't cuff you or something. He's probably just gonna dump it in the trash can if he's a ####. Then you raid the trash can when he's gone.


I know I've raided the range for brass a couple times in the past after the SQ and local tac squad have done their thing.

When the SQ is done with shooting female silhouette targets in the genitals they just leave their #### all over the place.
 
This is particularly evident with the price of the King Cobras. Those guns are not in the same league as the python, were half the price of pythons when new, and people these days seem to be willing to buy them for almost the same price as pythons
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No kidding. There is one on there right now that is priced over $2800 and marked as 'rare'..OUCH!
 
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