Soo my Type 97 just blew up on me

thump_rrr said:
As the bold type indicates it was a mixture of 4320 and Titegroup.
There is no way to prove how much was Titegroup and how much was 4320 so don't make this out to be proof that the T97 was designed to handle a massive overpressure.
The next person who may end up with a full 24gr of Titegroup may potentially be removing parts of a bolt from their skull.
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The OP also stated in the same paragraph that it was "somewhere up to 24 grs of Titegroup". I'm going to assume that a large percentage of the charge was Titegroup based on the rounds he pulled apart. There's no mistaking the two even in the same pile, and considering how a powder measure works if it was one of the first rounds loaded, a little Titegroup, and just the third or fourth, mostly. I don't think anyone is claiming that any rifle is designed to handle a "massive overpressure", but it held together fairly well regardless considering that the pistol powder likely made up a pretty large percentage of the charge.

Rifle snobs get under my skin, shooting isn't cheap to begin with, and some people can only afford a rifle/pistol in the price range of a Norinco, that or wait another year to afford better...in a year anyone of us could be in the ground. Norinco rifles and pistols have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are well constructed and reliable, granted some need a little "tweaking" out of the box, but these are well known problems and so is the fix. If anyone is short on coin and wants to start shooting I have no hesitation in telling them to get a CQ-A or an NP-22. Anyone doing differently is an elitist or deluded.
 
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tootall said:
So, what have we learned here.

-Keeping different powder kegs on the bench is a bad idea.
-charging a rifle case with pistol powder is really bad idea.
-Anytime a Norinco has an incident, opinions will follow
-This Norinco held together very well considering the charge
-Firing Right hand ejection bullpups from the left shoulder may not be a good idea
-Deal with Icelink at your own risk
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Thanks.

How many pages before we see more T97/Made In China/North Sylva bashing? I'm taking bets.
 
Dsiwy said:
I would use the "A Christmas story" way out, just say a icicle fell, hit your face and blew up your gun.
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Laugh2 nice!

I am glad to hear that the T97 is not a POS. I really do miss mine... Always been slightly surprised by its NR status sssshhhhhhhh

Maybe we'll see a "Bullpups give me the creeps" thread soon! Bwahahahaha
 
krprice84 said:
Gets difficult when you have five powder measures on your bench at once.... Actually six Damnit.

Key is to use masking tape on every measure and Mark what's in it. Double check the can before you top off and make sure it matches your measure. Twice. Then again.
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This is what I was doing, but still happened. I think I will adopt the bagged press rule from now on.
 
tootall said:
As the other one I mentioned was with factory ammo, I'm thinking it is not a reload issue.

I'm thinking it is an OOB issue, perhaps soft primers.
Thoughts?

IIRC, the Egyptian contract FN-49 had a floating firing pin, and that resulted in a few going poof too.
And no one would say that FN is crap.
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It's hard to say without examining the rifle, but that's a distinct possibility, and the only reason I can think of as to why it would kaboom if the loads are to spec. In this case though, it appears the loads were dangerously out of spec. This is why I only have one can of powder on the bench at a time, and check the hopper on my powder measured before putting anything in to it, and after emptying it when I'm done.
 
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tootall said:
So, what have we learned here.

-Keeping different powder kegs on the bench is a bad idea.
-charging a rifle case with pistol powder is really bad idea.
-Anytime a Norinco has an incident, opinions will follow
-This Norinco held together very well considering the charge
-Firing Right hand ejection bullpups from the left shoulder may not be a good idea
-Deal with Icelink at your own risk
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I find the lack of integrity and personal responsibility on the part of some members disturbing.
 
Colin said:
This is what I was doing, but still happened. I think I will adopt the bagged press rule from now on.
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Thank you for your honesty,

My personal method is to remove all powder by continuously throwing charges back into the powder container, tapping the powder dispenser and continuing until not a kernel is left. There are often several full charges left after I can no longer see powder in the hopper or throat.

Stay safe and keep shooting,

Willy
 
Very good read, from someone that reloads AND has a T97 (AND a norc AR, 1911 AND 305).

I have about 10,000 rounds (~8,000 being hand loads) through my AR, the barrel is probably about done, and the gas rings had to be replaced, but damn that rifle is rock solid. The T97 isn't often taken out, only because the way the gun recoils feels a bit weird (like the compressor motor moving around in a fridge if that makes sense) and it's not as accurate (for me) as the AR. I have ~5,000 rounds trough the 1911 and probably close to 500 through the 305. Would I replace the ones I have if they were gone? Very likely. (maybe not the T97 for the reason stated above).

I have been guilty of the "more than one" tub of powder on the table at a time, but I only have 1 hopper, so not as likely to have different powders mixed, but not to say it couldn't happen. This is a good reminder to me to keep the bench clean, and pay attention. Tigeroup is my go-to for most of my pistol reloads, so it's always around... I like the masking tape idea..

Glad to hear you're alright, and I would like to think I would admit my mistake to the group here if I found I screwed up but it would be tough, who likes to admit mistakes. Well done Colin :)
 
Colin said:
So just found the problem, pulled a bullet and found a mix of 4320 and what is likely Titegroup. It seems I must have put some titegroup into the wrong hopper. I have several presses and pro 1000 and loadmaster side by side, I must have become distracted and put it into the wrong hopper. I think I will have to change the hopper colour so i can't do this again, a very expensive mistake, but still I have only a bruised face, ego and wallet to show for it. Actually if it managed to stay together mostly for somewhere up to 24 grs of Titegroup I am impressed and will buy another one.
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very glad to hear you are fine. And thanks for sharing the finding. that's reason why I never attempt to do reloading.
 
redshooter said:
The OP also stated in the same paragraph that it was "somewhere up to 24 grs of Titegroup". I'm going to assume that a large percentage of the charge was Titegroup based on the rounds he pulled apart. There's no mistaking the two even in the same pile, and considering how a powder measure works if it was one of the first rounds loaded, a little Titegroup, and just the third or fourth, mostly. I don't think anyone is claiming that any rifle is designed to handle a "massive overpressure", but it held together fairly well regardless considering that the pistol powder likely made up a pretty large percentage of the charge.

Rifle snobs get under my skin, shooting isn't cheap to begin with, and some people can only afford a rifle/pistol in the price range of a Norinco, that or wait another year to afford better...in a year anyone of us could be in the ground. Norinco rifles and pistols have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are well constructed and reliable, granted some need a little "tweaking" out of the box, but these are well known problems and so is the fix. If anyone is short on coin and wants to start shooting I have no hesitation in telling them to get a CQ-A or an NP-22. Anyone doing differently is an elitist or deluded.
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You know what they say about assumptions.
This is only an assumption since the round that went off is not around to be tested.
It could have also had 6 grains of Titegroup with 18 grains of 4320.
We will never know.

I wouldn't want to fire any rifle with 24gr of Titegroup it could be one of my Noveske's, a Norinco, or a Tavor but to say that a T97 is well built because it didn't throw the bolt through the shooters head with an unknown mixture of powder is absurd.
 
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thump_rrr said:
You know what they say about assumptions.
This is only an assumption since the round that went off is not around to be tested.
It could have also had 6 grains of Titegroup with 18 grains of 4320.
We will never know.

I wouldn't want to fire any rifle with 24gr of Titegroup it could be one of my Noveske's, a Norinco, or a Tavor but to say that a T97 is well built because it didn't throw the bolt through the shooters head with an unknown mixture of powder is absurd.
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I can't argue with you on this...not quite absurd in my mind, but I appreciate your position.
 
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How can folks not differentiate granular vs a flake powder. When mix together does the flake fall to the bottom thereby can't be seen from looking down the neck.

On the progressive I always weight at least the first three charges on the RCBS CM, then at least every 25. Can understand mixing up h4350 with Varget but TG looks completely different. Are folks not even weight/visual checking once every box of 50???
 
burnaby said:
How can folks not differentiate granular vs a flake powder. When mix together does the flake fall to the bottom thereby can't be seen from looking down the neck.

On the progressive I always weight at least the first three charges on the RCBS CM, then at least every 25. Can understand mixing up h4350 with Varget but TG looks completely different. Are folks not even weight/visual checking once every box of 50???
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He said he had at last 15 that were fine at one point, not so sure a spot check would have caught it.
 
burnaby said:
How can folks not differentiate granular vs a flake powder. When mix together does the flake fall to the bottom thereby can't be seen from looking down the neck.

On the progressive I always weight at least the first three charges on the RCBS CM, then at least every 25. Can understand mixing up h4350 with Varget but TG looks completely different. Are folks not even weight/visual checking once every box of 50???
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Normally I look into the powder can and the label, then check the hopper. The reality is that we are all human, had you told me last week I might do so this, i too would have said "no way". But it happened, I read enough coroner reports to see a lot people who said "it can't happen to me" , but it does. I am going to change up my procedures, but this is the first time anything like this has happened to me in over 10 years of reloading. Also Lee hoppers are a dark red , so not as easy to see as my Hornady.
 
Colin said:
This is what I was doing, but still happened. I think I will adopt the bagged press rule from now on.
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To be honest, I guess it can happen. No offense intended here, but might it have just been complacency? Not sure how long you've been loading, but a lot of the horror stories I've heard are often from long-time reloaders who just get so complacent that their system is perfect, and they start not double checking labels etc, or they assume they remember what was loaded last, etc. Again, no offense intended, but so far for me, having seen so many stories like this, I make a pretty big point to look at the label on the jar, then the measure, back to the jar, then the measure, and often i'll even double check my load manual. It also helps (imo) to weigh the first two or so charges after adding powder, then every 50 or so round, just to double check. Doing that, you'd also catch it if you had two different powders in there, for certain.

But at the end of the day, sh** happens, and that sucks. that's a lot of cash to be out for a simple mistake! (I know it's "just" a norinco, but it's still about, what, a grand? that's a lot of cash to be out!)

sucks man, glad you're ok though
 
burnaby said:
How can folks not differentiate granular vs a flake powder. When mix together does the flake fall to the bottom thereby can't be seen from looking down the neck.

On the progressive I always weight at least the first three charges on the RCBS CM, then at least every 25. Can understand mixing up h4350 with Varget but TG looks completely different. Are folks not even weight/visual checking once every box of 50???
Click to expand...

honestly, on my dillon, I peek in on average every 2-3 rounds with pistol rounds. with 223, never. I weigh 10 right off the bat, then check the weight maybe every 2-300 or so, but I also know my measures and know how much powder I need to keep in them to keep things right. I've done pretty serious testing on my dillon measures, and with HS6, I am accurate to +/- 0.02 grains (actually 0.024 grains, average). With the powder I use for 223, it's accurate to about +/- 0.04 grains - I'm happy with that, and I know it doesn't need checking often at all. Only time I really make an effort to double check it is if I have a stoppage that causes me to knock the press or bench, then I know the powder has settled into the measure, so I'll throw out the next two charges and finish those cases at the end of the run.

with my RCBS measures (and lyman measure), I double check every 25-50 or so, depending on the type of powder being thrown and what else I've done. I find them to be less accurate than my dillon stuff.
 
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