That's one of the many unproven theories that go the rounds on CGN, but I have been annealing for a good many years, mostly 270, 30-06, 243, etc,, using the method I described and I have never crushed the neck of a single cartridge and they all hold the bullet tight.
Induction Annealing
- Thread starter Shooter1971
- Start date
That's one of the many unproven theories that go the rounds on CGN, but I have been annealing for a good many years, mostly 270, 30-06, 243, etc,, using the method I described and I have never crushed the neck of a single cartridge and they all hold the bullet tight.
How tight is the bullet held? Is it consistent?
Majority of the CGN folks posting about automated gas annealer and induction want consistency (neck turn crowd).
No doubt the water and propane method works. I don't want to deal with water nor gas. The induction method is a LOT less mess and precise. Drop in case to same spot, same amt of heat each time. All precision shooters insist on consistency, induction gives you that. Good enough for Lapua factory case is good enough for me.
Consensus of the CGN and Internet crowd say don't get the neck/shoulder red hot, stop at/before sign of neck glowing. Given the pressure brass has to endure over softening neck/shoulder seem unprudent (gut feeling, really need to research).
Def. need more temp than solder melting. My target is min 750°f at neck shoulder, below 650 just below, under 450 for base.
Majority of the CGN folks posting about automated gas annealer and induction want consistency (neck turn crowd).
No doubt the water and propane method works. I don't want to deal with water nor gas. The induction method is a LOT less mess and precise. Drop in case to same spot, same amt of heat each time. All precision shooters insist on consistency, induction gives you that. Good enough for Lapua factory case is good enough for me.
Consensus of the CGN and Internet crowd say don't get the neck/shoulder red hot, stop at/before sign of neck glowing. Given the pressure brass has to endure over softening neck/shoulder seem unprudent (gut feeling, really need to research).
Def. need more temp than solder melting. My target is min 750°f at neck shoulder, below 650 just below, under 450 for base.
Hi Burnaby,
No doubt, electrical heating is far superior and I too have a built in fear of fire, so I take some special precautions before firing up. I have a fair background in radio and electric and have often thought of rigging up a coil for heating. Mine wouldn't be as precise on timing as those described here, I would just use a relay switch and push button on the low voltage and amperage section to time it. I was thinking of a special built tong tool that would fit the base of the cartridge and be heavy enough to act as a heat sink, then as soon as enough heat was arrived at in the shoulder area, it could be dropped in water to quickly cool, before the base had a chance to warm up to any dangerous level.
No doubt, electrical heating is far superior and I too have a built in fear of fire, so I take some special precautions before firing up. I have a fair background in radio and electric and have often thought of rigging up a coil for heating. Mine wouldn't be as precise on timing as those described here, I would just use a relay switch and push button on the low voltage and amperage section to time it. I was thinking of a special built tong tool that would fit the base of the cartridge and be heavy enough to act as a heat sink, then as soon as enough heat was arrived at in the shoulder area, it could be dropped in water to quickly cool, before the base had a chance to warm up to any dangerous level.
Hi H4831,
All the electronic gears on eBay is really cheap. Timers are 6 bucks, prox. sensor 2 bucks, solenoid 2 bucks. Drop in brass, prox sensor detect, send gnd to timer which then sends pwr to relay for ~8s, second timer sends pwr after 8s to solenoid for .4s to pull bar to drop brass. Circuit wise very elementary. Hardest part is building the enclosure box (gonna look nice) and winding copper coil. Mine will be wood enclosure with plexglass panel (maybe with lights like a fancy PC case).
Best part of induction is with adequate power (600w+, pref 1000w) the neck/shoulder reaches 750 so fast the base can be bare hand handled (see the annie vid where dude pick up base of just anneal brass with bare fingers).
All the electronic gears on eBay is really cheap. Timers are 6 bucks, prox. sensor 2 bucks, solenoid 2 bucks. Drop in brass, prox sensor detect, send gnd to timer which then sends pwr to relay for ~8s, second timer sends pwr after 8s to solenoid for .4s to pull bar to drop brass. Circuit wise very elementary. Hardest part is building the enclosure box (gonna look nice) and winding copper coil. Mine will be wood enclosure with plexglass panel (maybe with lights like a fancy PC case).
Best part of induction is with adequate power (600w+, pref 1000w) the neck/shoulder reaches 750 so fast the base can be bare hand handled (see the annie vid where dude pick up base of just anneal brass with bare fingers).
FirearmsEnthusiast
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
I bit the bullet and bought an Annie induction annealer from Fluxeon in California. It's amazing! For home builders, they also sell the coil components separately I believe. My coil is not water cooled but does get quite warm after 40-50 cases with no delay between hand feeding each case. I can hold the base of the case with my hands (or you would need non-conducting tongs) and it takes anywhere from 5-20 seconds until the heat conducts down to the base of the case. I use Tempilaq 750F on the case neck and 400F on the case body to determine annealing time (usually 2-3 seconds) and annealing is quite uniform.
Induction annealing is the way to go!
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The annie induction heater is the only tool that makes sense according to me because of the precise timer.
Even with the flame annealer, depending on what the propane pressure is in your tank, you won't get the same heat or anneal on different batches, or even on one large batch.
I personally hand anneal with a drill though.
Even with the flame annealer, depending on what the propane pressure is in your tank, you won't get the same heat or anneal on different batches, or even on one large batch.
I personally hand anneal with a drill though.
Fluxeon's latest video shows them with a water cooled coil instead of the horseshoe. Horseshoe is faster but can not be used continuous like water cooled coil.
Was planning on getting their horseshoe but now with them going WC coil made my own from leftover 1/4" copper pipe from the fridge ice maker installation (basically free for me). Wrap with 6mm FG tube, looks and works great.
Was planning on getting their horseshoe but now with them going WC coil made my own from leftover 1/4" copper pipe from the fridge ice maker installation (basically free for me). Wrap with 6mm FG tube, looks and works great.
The definition of annealing includes slow cooling in air, the ideal case heat treatment might not be a traditional anneal however.
FirearmsEnthusiast
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
The Annie hits the case neck with enough energy to get the case next up to 750F in 3 seconds typically for a .308 type case. I confirm temp with 750 Tempilaq and 450 on the case body using a stripe from just below the neck and running right to the case head - the 450 does not melt anywhere on the case, even with air cooling. So, I hold the case with my fingers during annealing, then drop in onto a metal pan (no water) and even though the case body temp continues to rise, no effect on the 450 Tempilaq. I believe that the metal tray acts like a heat sink and helps dissipate heat without quenching.
Neck tension has been much more consistent on 4F or 5F brass that is then annealed. I think I'll be annealing after every second firing.
No muss, no fuss, just turn on, dial in the annealing time, and go. I only anneal in small batches (20-50 cases) - any more and I would switch to the water cooled coil for sure.
Neck tension has been much more consistent on 4F or 5F brass that is then annealed. I think I'll be annealing after every second firing.
No muss, no fuss, just turn on, dial in the annealing time, and go. I only anneal in small batches (20-50 cases) - any more and I would switch to the water cooled coil for sure.
FirearmsEnthusiast
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
It exists - Doug Giraud mates his high-capacity auto feed annealer to an Annie, but it is not exportable from the US due to ITAR restrictions on automated reloading equipment. It would not be hard to have a hopper and solenoid feed each cartridge, then activate the Annie through the foot switch connector. You would definitely need a water cooled induction loop for the volume of cases involved. It would be super fast though - .223 anneals in my Annie in 2.3-2.5 seconds per case.
Personally, I think some people have too much time on their hands. Annealing brass is not all that complicated.
What I do is hold the neck of the cartridge in the flame of a propane torch. I hold the cartridge with my bare fingers so that I can judge how hot its becoming.
You'll see the neck starting to change colour. You'll feel the cartridge getting warm. Thats enough. You're done. Let it air cool.
Quenching it in water actually can harden it. You don't want that.
You can pick up a torch kit with bottle for about 20-40$.
Keep it simple.
What I do is hold the neck of the cartridge in the flame of a propane torch. I hold the cartridge with my bare fingers so that I can judge how hot its becoming.
You'll see the neck starting to change colour. You'll feel the cartridge getting warm. Thats enough. You're done. Let it air cool.
Quenching it in water actually can harden it. You don't want that.
You can pick up a torch kit with bottle for about 20-40$.
Keep it simple.
Brass cannot be hardend by rapid cooling(quenching)
FirearmsEnthusiast
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kingston, ON
It probably takes more time to anneal with a torch...so much for having too much time on their hands!
As for "keeping it simple"...we should also probably "keep it right" in that many credible references indicate that quenching brass does not harden it. One of the best reference I have come across is the following article "The Art and Science of Annealing":
h ttp://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
(Delete the space in the above to access the link)
the article states that "Annealing brass and suddenly quenching it in water will have no measurable effect on the brass."
For those of us going for precision - we're looking for as much consistency as we can get - in this regard, induction annealing has a clear advantage over the "torch and warm finger methods" - and induction annealing is the topic of this thread.
Don't confuse simple with simpleton. Induction is cleaner, precise, faster than torch at a slightly higher cost that buy very few precision rounds.
Do some research to understand the major benefits of IU. In case you didn't know your post has a lot of attitude.
Using your Keep it simple method don't bother annealing, that's the simplest.
Do some research to understand the major benefits of IU. In case you didn't know your post has a lot of attitude.
Using your Keep it simple method don't bother annealing, that's the simplest.
Perhaps I should just create a DIY thread given the interest. Really wanted to finished mine, test it on at least 50 continuous to verify it works. Thus far only done about 10 in a row before things blow up (joys of testing, 1 my fault, other faulty parts.). Expecting replacement parts this week; hopefully it won't be stuck in Canada Post Hell comes strike time.
Adding full auto to my described setup requires only adding a commercial brass feeder or DIYer (many vids on Youtube).
I build my own brass feeder for my HDY LNL. If I had bought the LNL brass feeder could have easier use that to feed FULL AUTO this annealer (requires the coil, the horseshoe spacing is too finicky)
details please (...schematics too...)
Adding full auto to my described setup requires only adding a commercial brass feeder or DIYer (many vids on Youtube).
I build my own brass feeder for my HDY LNL. If I had bought the LNL brass feeder could have easier use that to feed FULL AUTO this annealer (requires the coil, the horseshoe spacing is too finicky)
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I will respectfully disagree that induction annealing is any cleaner or more precise than annealing in an open flame.
I will agree however that it is twice as fast when comparing a Giraud with a Fluxeon Induction Annealer and a Giraud annealer with an open flame.I am trying to find the article that I read somewhere that the author was getting worse results with induction annealed cases than with cases which were turned in an open flame.
He went on to say that the results were due to the induction anneler not annealing the cases evenly because they were not rotating. When he would rotate the cases in the induction annealer the same way the Giraud does his results were the same as with a flame based annealer.
If I can find the article I will post it.
If you can control the speed of the case and regulate the the gas pressure you will have repeatability.
Below I have posted a picture of my Lapua brass that has been fired 18 times. It is now prepped and ready to be loaded for the 19th time.These cases have not been cleaned after annealing. They were cleaned in stainless steel pins prior to annealing
I would like to see how you can get any cleaner than this with an induction annealer.
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Doug does not sell his annealer with the Fluxeon induction annealer
He will sell you a retrofit kit for $225 or will sell you the bracketry at the time of initial purchase for $125 which doesn't include parts required to flame anneal.
You then need to go to the Fluxeon site and order the Giraud retrofit kit for $47 + the Induction annealer for $484
Let's assume for a moment that this annealer was not ITAR controlled.
It would cost $470 for the annealer and $125 for the bracket kit for a grand total of $595 from Giraud and add to that $47+$484=$531 for a grand total of $1126 USD
