Marlin Guide 18.5" vs Marlin 22" Barrel velocity

[Ardent]

Same, and many texts have shown it, they both get deflected.

Heron sure, but as you said many guns fit that bill, and in better chamberings. Even a .30-30 lever gun is a better choice, also available in the same nice little packages.

 

[Superbrad]

to throw this into the mix, in a brushy scenario, where twigs or branches may provide issue, which will track better, a .30 cal at 2700 fps or a .458 at 1700 fps?

I'm thinking this would be one of the biggest reasons for the .45/70 resurgence in popularity. As far as brush guns go, is there anything better?

Brush bucking cartridges are a complete myth.....

 

[MiG25]

Brush bucking cartridges are a complete myth.....

IIRC, Seyfried published an article and according to his test, only a round ball comes close to "bucking brush".

 

[medvedqc]

This all said, isn't the 4570 in a lever gun a fantastic rifle for the walking north American hunter who will generally get fairly close to his quarry, will often be shooting at a moving target and wants something relatively light to carry.
And yes, I can appreciate there is a multitude of rounds and rifles that will do this.

for that specific purpose a 9.3x62 or 375 will do it better.

 

[geologist]

For me it's about weight, terrain and equipment load.

If the terrain is steep, the bush very thick or my carry load very heavy then the 1895GS.

If the terrain is easy, the ground wide open or my pack is light then the BRNO 602.

 

[heronfish]

It just seems to me there has to be a reason the 1895 has been so popular and spoken well of. I'd guess that bullet weight and a large meplat mixed with good marketing may be the answer.

 

[NB444]

I read this article before I opened this thread. The author appears to agree with Ardent that " High velocity coupled with controlled expansion bullets gives the best of both worlds."
http://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance/

 

[Northman999]

What stops a griz Instantly... 12 gauge slug?

Nope.

My brother shot a sow grizzly, about 380 lbs, at a range of eight feet, off his front porch with a 12 gauge slug. Broadside shot through the boiler, double lung. She ran over 400 yards before expiring more than ten minutes later. Not sure how it's possible, but those are the facts. He sold his 12 gauge shortly after, completely disgusted with it. Now he sticks to his .338 win mag.

Bears do seem highly subject to hydrostatic shock, in my experience, as long as they are shot high in the shoulders broadside, or in the neck.

Obviously CNS shots are instantly fatal.

 

[medvedqc]

there is slug and there is a slug but as you i prefer a bigger rifle. but i know for a fact that brenneke slugs worked on bears ...

 

[Dake21]

I read this article before I opened this thread. The author appears to agree with Ardent that " High velocity coupled with controlled expansion bullets gives the best of both worlds."
http://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/shocking-bullet-performance/

You missed the part where it says it doesn't work all the time.

The more I read about ballistic the more question I have. I find a lot of article in the end seems to say ''We don't really know'' because there is so many variable to take into account it's hard to come to a cut and dry conclusion.

 

[heronfish]

You missed the part where it says it doesn't work all the time.

The more I read about ballistic the more question I have. I find a lot of article in the end seems to say ''We don't really know'' because there is so many variable to take into account it's hard to come to a cut and dry conclusion.

That pretty much sums it up.
Bigger and faster in tandem is better at shock, but then again I've read a 45/70 bullet penetrate better when driven slower.

None of it is wrong, but there appears to be more than one way to do the same job. And that's why I like my lever guns, they kill the same animals as the big magnums, I just need to get closer

 

[Dake21]

There's a video on youtube about a 30-30 or 32spl using a lasercast bullet at low velocity that penetrated almost 20 4L water jug. I was amazed when I saw this, once I get access to youtube I'll look it up and post it. Slow definitely penetrates.

 

[Why not?]

You missed the part where it says it doesn't work all the time.

The more I read about ballistic the more question I have. I find a lot of article in the end seems to say ''We don't really know'' because there is so many variable to take into account it's hard to come to a cut and dry conclusion.

You are correct, but to be certain, I would choose a smaller, lighter bullet, using controlled expanding bullets at much higher velocity than the 45-70 is capable of, every time. And, not just for grizzly bears.

A good friend of mine has killed more grizzlies with his 270 Winchester than anything else. My next door neighbour uses nothing but a 270 Winchester for all his hunting, and puts our big Ak-Yukon bull moose in the freezer every year. He not afraid to shoot bears with it, either. My wife has killed tons of big game, including bears with 270, 280, 308, and 30-06 rifles.

The truth is that people read more about 45-70s than actually hunt with them. It would be interesting to know how many guys here on CGN have actually killed big game using the 45-70. No one is saying it will not kill big game. Let's hear the stories about DRT kills using the cartridge.

Ted

 

[NB444]

You missed the part where it says it doesn't work all the time.

The more I read about ballistic the more question I have. I find a lot of article in the end seems to say ''We don't really know'' because there is so many variable to take into account it's hard to come to a cut and dry conclusion.

No read that also. What I take away is proper bullet placement trumps all, within reason of course. Still need a cartridge with enough horsepower to do the job. I use my 444 from a tree-stand and when things get longer than 150 meters or so I grab a 270 or 300 win mag. Flatter trajectory makes range estimation easier.

 

[heronfish]

You are correct, but to be certain, I would choose a smaller, lighter bullet, using controlled expanding bullets at much higher velocity than the 45-70 is capable of, every time. And, not just for grizzly bears.

A good friend of mine has killed more grizzlies with his 270 Winchester than anything else. My next door neighbour uses nothing but a 270 Winchester for all his hunting, and puts our big Ak-Yukon bull moose in the freezer every year. He not afraid to shoot bears with it, either. My wife has killed tons of big game, including bears with 270, 280, 308, and 30-06 rifles.

The truth is that people read more about 45-70s than actually hunt with them. It would be interesting to know how many guys here on CGN have actually killed big game using the 45-70. No one is saying it will not kill big game. Let's hear the stories about DRT kills using the cartridge.

Ted

I didn't pull the trigger but I watched my father in law shoot a young whitetail in the neck. I can appreciate whitetail deer aren't too difficult to kill, but it was this that prompted me to get a 4570.

 

[bcsteve]

I didn't pull the trigger but I watched my father in law shoot a young whitetail in the neck. I can appreciate whitetail deer aren't too difficult to kill, but it was this that prompted me to get a 4570.

That's probably the worst example to demonstrate the effectiveness of the .45-70. A .223 would bang-flop any deer with a neck shot to the spine.

 

[heronfish]

That's probably the worst example to demonstrate the effectiveness of the .45-70. A .223 would bang-flop any deer with a neck shot to the spine.

I never ascribed it as example of a bang flop, only my example of a 4570 on big game. The tissue damage was extensive, but I can appreciate a small 22 cal would have still killed the deer.

My first deer was a bang flop with a 243 but I've also seen them catch adrenaline and take off on the dead run after being shot. I suspect we can all tell similar stories.

 

[MiG25]

You are correct, but to be certain, I would choose a smaller, lighter bullet, using controlled expanding bullets at much higher velocity than the 45-70 is capable of, every time. And, not just for grizzly bears.

A good friend of mine has killed more grizzlies with his 270 Winchester than anything else. My next door neighbour uses nothing but a 270 Winchester for all his hunting, and puts our big Ak-Yukon bull moose in the freezer every year. He not afraid to shoot bears with it, either. My wife has killed tons of big game, including bears with 270, 280, 308, and 30-06 rifles.

The truth is that people read more about 45-70s than actually hunt with them. It would be interesting to know how many guys here on CGN have actually killed big game using the 45-70. No one is saying it will not kill big game. Let's hear the stories about DRT kills using the cartridge.

Ted

I've never seen a 45-70 in the field. The only guy I know with one is more Mall Ninja Zombie Apocalypse than Hunter.

 

[medvedqc]

You are correct, but to be certain, I would choose a smaller, lighter bullet, using controlled expanding bullets at much higher velocity than the 45-70 is capable of, every time. And, not just for grizzly bears.

A good friend of mine has killed more grizzlies with his 270 Winchester than anything else. My next door neighbour uses nothing but a 270 Winchester for all his hunting, and puts our big Ak-Yukon bull moose in the freezer every year. He not afraid to shoot bears with it, either. My wife has killed tons of big game, including bears with 270, 280, 308, and 30-06 rifles.

The truth is that people read more about 45-70s than actually hunt with them. It would be interesting to know how many guys here on CGN have actually killed big game using the 45-70. No one is saying it will not kill big game. Let's hear the stories about DRT kills using the cartridge.

Ted

to add a little on Ted stories i ve seen 4 barrenground caribous killed while guiding by 45-70 and lever evolution bullet and i was not impressed. we all know that barrenground caribou are not huge at all.

 

[Superbrad]

To be honest, I was interested in the caliber until I took the time to do a little research...... As a novice reloader, I thought it would be a neat cartridge to add life to with modern powders and experiment with...... Was actually thinking of getting one in a Ruger #1...... After researching "best loads"etc, I was very unimpressed....... Add the lack of energy with the fact that it has the trajectory of a landing Zeppelin and it's not hard to see why......