Modern Hunter jamming issue

Horse96 said:
Hmm, if I were atrs I think I'd make a budget version of the MH. One that shoots like a bone stock m305. Looser tolerances to allow for surplus ammo and overall functioning. I'd probably recommend that Rifle to potential customers that are just plinkers. For people concerned with the best accuracy they can get from a semi, I'd sell them the MH. It shouldn't be a surprise, but the MH has a match barrel. That means tight tolerances. I am still floored that people buy the MH and run surplus through it. Surplus ammo has loose and inconsistent powder charges, primers, neck tension, crappy projectiles that probably weoght + or - 10 grains from whats stated on the box and out of whack oal. None of those factors are conducive to accuracy.

Anyway, I'd make a product for the plinkers that could cycle the cheap stuff. The margins wouldn't be as good and so I'd have to make it up with high volume of sales. Maybe outsource? Is the action patented to atrs? If so atrs, please send me a cheque for my consultative services. ☺. Or send me an MH as payment ��
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We have no interest in making poor quality/cheap guns. The margin would be much higher in the lower quality guns, anyone in the industry will attest, it puts more profit margin in the business selling the lower end guns that the high end, AND it takes far less man hours to both build and sell cheap junk. Which is why so many shops sell SKS and Norc stuff.

Making a low end line also has an effect on the brand. I see guys driving little crap cans that have the Mercedes Benz badge on them that can be purchased for $35000.00. How does this enhance the name when the brand is known for producing $100K plus cars? The chances of the $35K car having much other than the badge being made by Benz is low, but I suppose it allows some to say they drive a Benz. I have never understood this marketing plan. To build a name based on high quality and above average pricing that justifies the quality then to cut quality to try and get a piece of the market that is already full of cheap options just does not make sense.
We build extremely high quality products, our accuracy, fit and finish is what we are known for. Our prices are based on the quality of the components used and the cost of highly paid craftsmen who build our products. To even contemplate making an inferior product makes me cringe.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
We have no interest in making poor quality/cheap guns. The margin would be much higher in the lower quality guns, anyone in the industry will attest, it puts more profit margin in the business selling the lower end guns that the high end, AND it takes far less man hours to both build and sell cheap junk. Which is why so many shops sell SKS and Norc stuff.

Making a low end line also has an effect on the brand. I see guys driving little crap cans that have the Mercedes Benz badge on them that can be purchased for $35000.00. How does this enhance the name when the brand is known for producing $100K plus cars? The chances of the $35K car having much other than the badge being made by Benz is low, but I suppose it allows some to say they drive a Benz. I have never understood this marketing plan. To build a name based on high quality and above average pricing that justifies the quality then to cut quality to try and get a piece of the market that is already full of cheap options just does not make sense.
We build extremely high quality products, our accuracy, fit and finish is what we are known for. Our prices are based on the quality of the components used and the cost of highly paid craftsmen who build our products. To even contemplate making an inferior product makes me cringe.
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go big or go home ....
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
We have no interest in making poor quality/cheap guns. The margin would be much higher in the lower quality guns, anyone in the industry will attest, it puts more profit margin in the business selling the lower end guns that the high end, AND it takes far less man hours to both build and sell cheap junk. Which is why so many shops sell SKS and Norc stuff.

Making a low end line also has an effect on the brand. I see guys driving little crap cans that have the Mercedes Benz badge on them that can be purchased for $35000.00. How does this enhance the name when the brand is known for producing $100K plus cars? The chances of the $35K car having much other than the badge being made by Benz is low, but I suppose it allows some to say they drive a Benz. I have never understood this marketing plan. To build a name based on high quality and above average pricing that justifies the quality then to cut quality to try and get a piece of the market that is already full of cheap options just does not make sense.
We build extremely high quality products, our accuracy, fit and finish is what we are known for. Our prices are based on the quality of the components used and the cost of highly paid craftsmen who build our products. To even contemplate making an inferior product makes me cringe.
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Out of curiousity, where would you stand on allowing/working with (licensing/permiting) another manufacturer to produce the MH or MV design for more of a field grade rifle (looser tolerances, and more reasonably priced for the common individual, and under the other manufacturers name so as to provide seperation in the branding)

If this happened I could see myself having one of each in the .223 caliber, the ATRS would be for precision and the "x brand" would be my hard use plinker/farm rifle.

Just throwing this out there, not trying to insult you or your companies hard work and insane amount of hours spent on these projects, I just feel the more of this design in public hands the better, and many of the guys on this forum don't have the funds or the need of such an accurate and expensive rifle to justify the purchase. Many of these guys just want a NR AR and a dozen cans of NORC 556, but the AR is restricted so they hunt for the next reasonably priced closest thing. The MV design could be that if it fell close to the $2k mark. It would dominate the plinker market space as long as it shot on average 2.5moa or better and was reliable. Just something to consider is all.
 
onetwentyish said:
Out of curiousity, where would you stand on allowing/working with (licensing/permiting) another manufacturer to produce the MH or MV design for more of a field grade rifle (looser tolerances, and more reasonably priced for the common individual, and under the other manufacturers name so as to provide seperation in the branding)

If this happened I could see myself having one of each in the .223 caliber, the ATRS would be for precision and the "x brand" would be my hard use plinker/farm rifle.

Just throwing this out there, not trying to insult you or your companies hard work and insane amount of hours spent on these projects, I just feel the more of this design in public hands the better, and many of the guys on this forum don't have the funds or the need of such an accurate and expensive rifle to justify the purchase. Many of these guys just want a NR AR and a dozen cans of NORC 556, but the AR is restricted so they hunt for the next reasonably priced closest thing. The MV design could be that if it fell close to the $2k mark. It would dominate the plinker market space as long as it shot on average 2.5moa or better and was reliable. Just something to consider is all.
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great post. Probably something to consider once R&D and "entitlement" costs are recouped. dont want to cannibalize current MV sales.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
We have no interest in making poor quality/cheap guns. The margin would be much higher in the lower quality guns, anyone in the industry will attest, it puts more profit margin in the business selling the lower end guns that the high end, AND it takes far less man hours to both build and sell cheap junk. Which is why so many shops sell SKS and Norc stuff.

Making a low end line also has an effect on the brand. I see guys driving little crap cans that have the Mercedes Benz badge on them that can be purchased for $35000.00. How does this enhance the name when the brand is known for producing $100K plus cars? The chances of the $35K car having much other than the badge being made by Benz is low, but I suppose it allows some to say they drive a Benz. I have never understood this marketing plan. To build a name based on high quality and above average pricing that justifies the quality then to cut quality to try and get a piece of the market that is already full of cheap options just does not make sense.
We build extremely high quality products, our accuracy, fit and finish is what we are known for. Our prices are based on the quality of the components used and the cost of highly paid craftsmen who build our products. To even contemplate making an inferior product makes me cringe.
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Wow, a $35,000 car is considered crap? That's kind of a douchey thing for you to say, but I suppose it's possible that more than half of CGN's population drive crap cars, me included.

BTW, is it true you are using DPMS BCGs?

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1455900-The-Varminter/page12
 
6MT said:
Where do people get off saying the m.h. is a $5000 rifle? I am sick of the mis-information that gets spewed on the internet.
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when I priced one out it was around $4500 with the lightest and cheapest components they offer to get there (not carbon barrel) after shipping and taxes it is knocking on the 5k door pretty easily
 
Brianma65 said:
I know right, Same as people calling the MV a $4500-$5000 gun.
The MV is listed at $3350. That's about $300 more than a ACR and $500 more than a XCR.
Mine was $3350, then I added some upgrades... Do you add upgrades to the cost? Wouldn't that be like me saying, my Savage 10TR cost $2000, because I put it in a Cadex?
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with the ACR, the basic configuration is already the lightest
 
Brian46 said:
with the ACR, the basic configuration is already the lightest
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Brian I don't know what you mean abou lightest.
A basic MV is $3350.
A basic ACR is $3000.
What you choose to add to it,should not be equated.
I'm not saying the MV is better as I haven't owned either. But they are pretty even in cost.
 
Mister Donut said:
Wow, a $35,000 car is considered crap? That's kind of a douchey thing for you to say, but I suppose it's possible that more than half of CGN's population drive crap cars, me included.

BTW, is it true you are using DPMS BCGs?

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1455900-The-Varminter/page12
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I don't think Rick was saying $35000 cars are crappy, I think he was alluding to how it brings the brand's overall value down. Kind of like how you would imagine if Lamborghini started selling midsize sedans and station wagons. I think it would hurt the brand. That's why Audi who owns Lamborghini does produce the Audi R8 (built on a Lambo Gallardo chasis) at a lower price than the equivalent lambo.
 
Brian46 said:
when I priced one out it was around $4500 with the lightest and cheapest components they offer to get there (not carbon barrel) after shipping and taxes it is knocking on the 5k door pretty easily
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It's a $3350 rifle. They then offer what would typically be aftermarket upgrades from factory. You can not count those as basic pricing just because they give you the option to order it pre-configured to you.

I don't say the basic ACR is $6000 just because it needs a non-restricted barrel ($500-2000), a carbon fiber handguard ($500), folding charging handle ($150) and a light weight trunion ($500) and a Geissele ($375) and a muzzle device ($150-250)
 
358Rooster said:
See below (along with many other soundly logical posts).
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#### I would hope they test them before shipping a flawed 5000$ setup to someone who's been waiting for months, especially that from what I was understand return shipping isn't covered if there is a defect. I've been checking the MH for a couple of years now, im glad I waited and didn't buy one of the early ones at retail.
 
6MT said:
Where do people get off saying the m.h. is a $5000 rifle? I am sick of the mis-information that gets spewed on the internet.
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Werent you selling your used one for 4500$ recently ? Tomatoe tomato .Most ive seen so far where above 5000$ new based on the configuration, add taxes and shipping and they all cost pretty much arround 5k... How would you feel if your MH you waited for a year or so was jamming or had other issues out of the box and you had had to ship it back at your own cost for lengthy repairs/ troubleshooting ? I Really wanted one. Still do, just worried about having to ship it back to ATRS for 200$ a pop if i get a lemon.
 
patsow87 said:
Werent you selling your used one for 4500$ recently ? Tomatoe tomato .Most ive seen so far where above 5000$ new based on the configuration, add taxes and shipping and they all cost pretty much arround 5k... How would you feel if your MH you waited for a year or so was jamming or had other issues out of the box and you had had to ship it back at your own cost for lengthy repairs/ troubleshooting ? I Really wanted one. Still do, just worried about having to ship it back to ATRS for 200$ a pop if i get a lemon.
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See my above reply. Yes most builds seem to run past $5k, but that is all the add ons. You should see what my ACR would be listed at on the EE when I am done tuning it up if I ever sold it as a complete package. It would be more than my MH which has every option.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
We have no interest in making poor quality/cheap guns. The margin would be much higher in the lower quality guns, anyone in the industry will attest, it puts more profit margin in the business selling the lower end guns that the high end, AND it takes far less man hours to both build and sell cheap junk. Which is why so many shops sell SKS and Norc stuff.

Making a low end line also has an effect on the brand. I see guys driving little crap cans that have the Mercedes Benz badge on them that can be purchased for $35000.00. How does this enhance the name when the brand is known for producing $100K plus cars? The chances of the $35K car having much other than the badge being made by Benz is low, but I suppose it allows some to say they drive a Benz. I have never understood this marketing plan. To build a name based on high quality and above average pricing that justifies the quality then to cut quality to try and get a piece of the market that is already full of cheap options just does not make sense.
We build extremely high quality products, our accuracy, fit and finish is what we are known for. Our prices are based on the quality of the components used and the cost of highly paid craftsmen who build our products. To even contemplate making an inferior product makes me cringe.
Click to expand...

onetwentyish said:
I don't think Rick was saying $35000 cars are crappy, I think he was alluding to how it brings the brand's overall value down. Kind of like how you would imagine if Lamborghini started selling midsize sedans and station wagons. I think it would hurt the brand. That's why Audi who owns Lamborghini does produce the Audi R8 (built on a Lambo Gallardo chasis) at a lower price than the equivalent lambo.
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Maybe he's not proficient in English and writes what he doesn't mean, but I find it difficult to read it any other way. His opinion of a car he considers crap is a $35,000 Benz.......while I drive a $2,000 Jeep. Not sure he could look down on people any more than that.

I understand the concept of diversifying your business, though I'm not sure he does. Lamborghini did just that by introducing the Gallardo, a lower cost Lambo compared to the Murcielago, and yes the R8 through Audi. This concept seems to elude him.

The question still stands, is he using a DPMS BCG in his Lamborgini?
 
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onetwentyish said:
See my above reply. Yes most builds seem to run past $5k, but that is all the add ons. You should see what my ACR would be listed at on the EE when I am done tuning it up if I ever sold it as a complete package. It would be more than my MH which has every option.
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I get what you are saying,but do you agree with me that anything in those prices should be tested prior to delivery and run flawlessly out of the box ? I'm buying a package based on the premise that it'll be a top notch rifle and shoot as such, what furniture I put on it is not really relevant if the basic functioning or design have a flaw. So whether it's the 3500$ ((+ taxes and shipping ) that's already over 4200$ for those of us in beautiful socialist Quebec) or a 6500$ fully decked out version makes no difference if you got a lemon upper or lower, sucks more if you sank the extra 3k to build your dream rifle though. I'm looking for a pre-owned one currently, still NOT sure if I want to risk it if it dosent run as I would expect a high end rifle to: reliably and accurately.
 
patsow87 said:
I get what you are saying,but do you agree with me that anything in those prices should be tested prior to delivery and run flawlessly out of the box ? I'm buying a package based on the premise that it'll be a top notch rifle and shoot as such, what furniture I put on it is not really relevant if the basic functioning or design have a flaw. So whether it's the 3500$ ((+ taxes and shipping ) that's already over 4200$ for those of us in beautiful socialist Quebec) or a 6500$ fully decked out version makes no difference if you got a lemon upper or lower, sucks more if you sank the extra 3k to build your dream rifle though. I'm looking for a pre-owned one currently, still NOT sure if I want to risk it if it dosent run as I would expect a high end rifle to: reliably and accurately.
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Maybe these were designed to run in more tropical conditions.
 
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