9mm or 40 S&W???

piperdown said:
I maintained a fleet of about 160 Beretta 96D's for several years. The failure rate on the .40 Beretta vs 9 was well documented in a number of police agencies in Canada and the US in the late 90's. I personally shot my issue 96 literally to pieces (documented round count). Went from those to Glock's and although the Glocks are far more resilient, they still take a beating from .40. More recoil impulse equals more maintenance and parts replacement. I shot a .40 Glock to pieces as well, but it took 4x longer than the Beretta. I carry a Glock 17 now and I'll do my best to shoot it to failure but I suspect I'll be retired before I can make that happen.
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Yeah but the Beretta is a piece of ####.

So your experience from 20 years ago is some how accurate? Do you believe in the Gender Wage gap as well?
My 1911 in 40 and my Tanfo in 40 is just fine.

As for Glocks well I have seen more Glocks malfunction then any other polymer.
 
sgt.rock said:
I am not a .40 fan in the slightest, BUT, I did notice during the last ammo shortage, that it was the only centerfire pistol ammo around for a good solid 2 years. Just saying that even if you get a 9mm, maybe having a 40 collecting dust is not such a bad idea.
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Rather than waste money on a paperweight in the safe why not spend it on more 9mm ammo. Buy it cheap and stack it deep.

Happypillz said:
Yeah but the Beretta is a piece of ####.

So your experience from 20 years ago is some how accurate? Do you believe in the Gender Wage gap as well?
My 1911 in 40 and my Tanfo in 40 is just fine.

As for Glocks well I have seen more Glocks malfunction then any other polymer.
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The FBI does the most exhaustive testing of any agency and they have empirical data that indicates guns chambered in 9mm have twice the service life of ones chambered in 40S&W. Factor in the cost of ammo, the increased recoil(think slower follow up shots) higher capacities(in a free country) and greater selection of firearms to choose from; And you've got a no brainer as to why 9mm pistols are the go to answer. If you want to talk about terminal performance than we need to understand that all handgun calibres suck and shot placement is the key factor. If we look at technology then we see that modern 9mm HP/defensive ammo is just as capable as any other common calibre.

You said that Beretta's are junk, and I tend to agree. I don't think piperdown's data is anything to mock. Observing other pistols fail is just an observation. Piperdown appears to be the armourer for a large LE department and has far more accurate data than simply observing a failure. Your comment about Glock's being the most common polymer gun you see fail is just your observation. Without knowing whether or not the guns are stock or have been messed with by the users means your anecdotal comment has no merit. You/we also do not know if the users were using reloads or factory ammo, another factor that often causes problems.
 
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Kidd X said:
Rather than waste money on a paperweight in the safe why not spend it on more 9mm ammo. Buy it cheap and stack it deep.



The FBI does the most exhaustive testing of any agency and they have empirical data that indicates guns chambered in 9mm have twice the service life of ones chambered in 40S&W. Factor in the cost of ammo, the increased recoil(think slower follow up shots) higher capacities(in a free country) and greater selection of firearms to choose from; And you've got a no brainer as to why 9mm pistols are the go to answer. If you want to talk about terminal performance than we need to understand that all handgun calibres suck and shot placement is the key factor. If we look at technology then we see that modern 9mm HP/defensive ammo is just as capable as any other common calibre.

You said that Beretta's are junk, and I tend to agree. I don't think piperdown's data is anything to mock. Observing other pistols fail is just an observation. Piperdown appears to be the armourer for a large LE department and has far more accurate data than simply observing a failure. Your comment about Glock's being the most common polymer gun you see fail is just your observation. Without knowing whether or not the guns are stock or have been messed with by the users means your anecdotal comment has no merit. You/we also do not know if the users were using reloads or factory ammo, another factor that often causes problems.
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Can you please Link me to the said study. As much as I would love to trust some person on the interwebs I will believe it when I see it.
 
Still alive said:
Well answered Kidd X.
And your astute observations about piperdown would be correct.
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The 40 was a poor attempt to rearm the FBI after their famous shootout which left a number of agents dead. The bureau initially procured the full blown 10mm until it was deemed to difficult to handle for their female agents. A number of companies followed up with a substitute caliber to replace the 10 eventually to have S&W supply their inimical 40 caliber. Now the FBI is reversing their thinking as Kidd has pointed out.

The 9 has been around for years and will remain around for years as a more then capable man stopper. This cartridge possibly then the 45 is really the only pistol caliber needed.
 
Happypillz said:
Can you please Link me to the said study. As much as I would love to trust some person on the interwebs I will believe it when I see it.
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Why? It likely was written 20 years ago. How could it possibly be relevant today? Probably more relevant than saying Berettas are a piece of..... I would say and about somewhat more informed.

Take Care
Bob
 
Happypillz said:
Yeah but the Beretta is a piece of ####.

So your experience from 20 years ago is some how accurate? Do you believe in the Gender Wage gap as well?
My 1911 in 40 and my Tanfo in 40 is just fine.

As for Glocks well I have seen more Glocks malfunction then any other polymer.
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Fair enough, just my observations from maintaining a Beretta fleet (until we thankfully replaced them) and a Glock fleet of around 275 guns for the last 15 years or so. And also dealing directly with the manufacturer, armorers, and engineers when we encountered these issues. The 96D comparison is still valid as 9mm Beretta's at the time encountered far fewer issues. Not knocking the .40, I'm simply stating my opinion based on my experience. But I'll tell you what, acquire yourself 200 or so .40 S&W 1911's and Tanfo's and put a million or so rounds through them over the next 2 decades, then get back to me on how they're holding up.

Oh, and where I work they've had gender equality for the past 30 years. Everyone even shot .40 ��
 
Happypillz said:
Yeah but the Beretta is a piece of ####.

So your experience from 20 years ago is some how accurate? Do you believe in the Gender Wage gap as well?
My 1911 in 40 and my Tanfo in 40 is just fine.

As for Glocks well I have seen more Glocks malfunction then any other polymer.
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I agree with you on the Glocks as iI have seen the same, but Beretta being a piece of ####, well we will just have to agree to disagree. The Beretta's in my collection have been the most reliable of any of the others, clean or dirty sometimes in excess of 1000 rounds before cleaning and I have yet to have a malfunction that wasnt ammo related and even then only twice from reloaded range brass split cases leaving brass inside the action.
I have 2 over the 50k mark and my last ipsc gun went 3 years with no issues before buying the m9a3 last feb which now has over 8k with no issues. My 96 has both 40 and 357 sig barrels and no issues with it with either round. I know of several berettas well over the 100k that still work flawlessly and even Slavex had one he used for competition he said went 150+k.
Beretta has been used my more police and military around the world than any other single brand for a reason.

Here is a pretty good article on the M9 written by someone who saw first had how much abuse they take at the hands of the US military.
ht tps://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/beretta-m9-gets-respect/
 
Happypillz said:
Except that is not a FBI source just a Web Page.

FYI

Glocks and Barettas are not the only guns out there.

Seen a lot of Berettas fail. Everything from Cracked slides to broken extractors. To top it off its like holding a 2X4 the most unergonomic gun besides the Glock.
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I thought this was a discussion on 9 or .40 and the merits of either cartridge (specifically as it relates to wear and tear)? Now we're into ergonomics and bricks and paper weights etc.... I don't typically chime in on a lot that goes on here. I do however speak up when I see valid questions asked by people that want information, which is why I jumped into this one. The web page posted is a summary, if you want official FBI data track it down, it's out there and I'm sure you can Google fu it with some limited effort.

As to the original issue, I'd be curious to know your experience with .40 and 9mm platforms? What pistols have you shot to failure personally (not seen...)? What is 'a lot of Beretta's? Any documented round counts? Factory ammo or handloads? What other platforms have you actually shot (not seen or heard) into 10,000 plus rounds? What have you heard at the armorer schools? Any credible sources (LE or otherwise)that have experienced issues with either cartridge? Lay it out and we can have an informed discussion.

Btw, I know there are more than a few other choices out there, thanks for the tip ��
 
And I've seen 1911s in both 9mm and .45 and CZs fail....
All mechanical devices will eventually wear and fail if used enough.

I know piperdown's credentials. What do you do , happypillz, where you see Berettas and Glocks blow up, apparently on a regular basis?
Please don't say in shooting matches as I've seen many 1911s fail in those also. Can't speak about Tanfoglios. Don't see many of them used out this way.
 
Still alive said:
And I've seen 1911s in both 9mm and .45 and CZs fail....
All mechanical devices will eventually wear and fail if used enough.

I know piperdown's credentials. What do you do , happypillz, where you see Berettas and Glocks blow up, apparently on a regular basis?
Please don't say in shooting matches as I've seen many 1911s fail in those also. Can't speak about Tanfoglios. Don't see many of them used out this way.
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So you think Shooting matches are not a good place to find out where guns fail? Production wise I've seen more Glocks have problems then any other platform in production. CZ seems to be a champ then again Tanfo are ungodly good as well.
I've seen a Baretta brand new from the store crack its slide after 300 rounds during black badge.
I have a Tanfo Match small frame (9mm) and shoot 40. 15 thousand rounds so far. I have read most of the forums on this gun and neither the 9mm or the 40 has problems on the same lower.
I have shot everything from reload to factory no issues.

Everyone has their preference. I shoot the 9mm but simply don't like it. Prefer the 40 with a minor load if I do that.

Using the stats of a Police force for Guns well that's a bit foolish mainly because they tend to have older and frankly crappier stuff.
 
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Happypillz said:
I have a Tanfo Match small frame (9mm) and shoot 40. 15 thousand rounds so far. I have read most of the forums on this gun and neither the 9mm or the 40 has problems on the same lower.
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You might want to have a chat with Sean from Freedom Ventures, he has a drawer full of tanfo 40's, found this out when my buddies frame split and decided to go edge for standard division instead of another Tanfo, but you are correct about the 9mm, the Tanfo 9mm is very durable.
 
M and P is a fine choice. Try to find a pro version with slightly better trigger and sights. Cant go wrong with CZ either. I would stick to 9mm.
 
Happypillz said:
So you think Shooting matches are not a good place to find out where guns fail? Production wise I've seen more Glocks have problems then any other platform in production. CZ seems to be a champ then again Tanfo are ungodly good as well.
I've seen a Baretta brand new from the store crack its slide after 300 rounds during black badge.
I have a Tanfo Match small frame (9mm) and shoot 40. 15 thousand rounds so far. I have read most of the forums on this gun and neither the 9mm or the 40 has problems on the same lower.
I have shot everything from reload to factory no issues.

Everyone has their preference. I shoot the 9mm but simply don't like it. Prefer the 40 with a minor load if I do that.

Using the stats of a Police force for Guns well that's a bit foolish mainly because they tend to have older and frankly crappier stuff.
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For non-LE/ Mil shooters, shooting matches are where we see most guns fail. Like I said, I've seen many 1911s fail at them also. My point is, we don't know the history of the guns that fail at the matches ( new/ used, mods done, ammo used etc.), unless you make it a point to grill the guy whose gun just went down. Whereas guns used by PDs and Mils are documented and worked on by certified armorers. They are kept at as close to factory specs as possible.
If you dig deep enough, you can come up with evidence of ALL models of guns failing somewhere. I had a failed SKS and a failed Mosin! And these two are supposed to be the most reliable guns ever.
You've seen Berettas and Glock fail. I've used a Glock for 30 yrs, same gun, never failed although parts were worn and had to be replaced. These are small anecdotal evidence compared to global samples. If Glocks were really that bad, big departments would be staying away from them, wouldn't you think?
Police guns may wear more due to misuse and banging around of daily life but I highly doubt they are "crappier stuff" to begin with.
Stats are stats. They have to start somewhere. From the first shot till when the gun is shot out. So to go through 20000, the gun will likely be older too.
 
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