ATRS modern hunter?
- Thread starter chunkydrunky
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Haha like cr5 said I have been going a bit crazy sitting at home. I was going to buy a proof barreled modern hunter after mine sold. I have now pulled all my ads.
Gotcha... didn't read the post carefully enough
Took delivery of my .308 MH last night. Got some of my favorite loads assembled once I could stop playing with my new toy. Set up the funky adjustable stock, got a Swaro z8i 1-8 properly mounted and then today, off to the range for the 1st test. The thing so far has eaten 155 SMK, 150 GameKings, 150 Interlocks, 150 TTSX, and 155 Scenars..... Winchester brass, CCI LR-BR primers and varget. Ogive 0.050 off the lands. I used the 5 round mag they shipped with the gun as well as two Robinson 10 round pistol mags, all without incident whatsoever. It runs like a fine Swiss watch!!!!! No jams, FTF, or other poor behaviour!!!! It works perfectly!!!!
Before leaving the house, I closely examined it with a bore scope, and the lands/grooves were perfectly polished, and the chamber cut nice and clean, so definitely a high grade barrel with care in machining and assembly. Not too many rifles I've ever scoped looked like this internally where it really matters!!
So, now on to the first accuracy test..... Freehand at 10 yards..... On paper at 6 o'clock. Cranked the elevation dial a number of times, and now at 6 o'clock an inch low.
Moved the target out to 50 yards, and the shots were 12 o'clock, about an inch and a bit high...... Chewed out the top of the 2" diamond target centre standing up leaning against the port. I couldn't get a bench insert because the range was stupid busy and I had to wait 20 minutes to get a port. the port I got couldn't fit a rifle top insert, and with the pistol shelf, I couldn't properly test off a bipod with a rear bag. I've seen enough to know that this thing is definitely a shooter!!!!! I will really wring it out properly in a couple of weeks when I plan to go to the outdoor 300 yard range.
So far I can absolutely say I love this gun already!!! It is a heavy pig at 9 3/4 pounds before scope, and loaded mag, but that's life with an AR10 size frame. It does balance beautifully and one does not notice the weight as one might with an M1A..... I was afraid I'd really hate the charging handle after reading posts here, but I can honestly say it's not too terrible at all and I'm coming around to quite like it even after a single range session...... Fit and finish is excellent.
Admittedly, I've not been able to shoot for groups yet, but my confidence is already very high from what I've seen.
So far, so good!!!!!!
A comment about the price: yes it is not a cheap rifle. It cost me less than my TRG42. It cost one tenth of a good modern German side-lock double rifle. It cost very slightly more than my Robinson with 6.8spc and .223 barrel. It cost a little over a grand more than my somewhat pimped out stainless barrel Springfield M1A loaded.
Is it good value? Well that is a question that has a variable answer based on an individual's perspective.
For me, most definitely YES!!! Are there other, less expensive alternatives? Yes. Are there less expensive non restricted self loader generally commercially available off the shelf alternatives that are built this well and shoot like this? No. (*I'm certain many Internet warriors will be happy to jump all over this one, but I don't give a sh1t. It's my post so I can voice my opinion as I see fit).
Can everybody afford one? A qualified yes. Cash is finite. I have personally made life choices that skimp in some critical areas so I can spend more on firearms which enable me to have greater liberties with my only chosen hobby - choices that many might call financially irresponsible. Do I care? Hell no. When I'm so old and feeble that I can do nothing but drool and stare at the wall, I will at least have some good memories to live with. Some might declare that I'm lucky for being able to buy one, but the funny thing is, the harder I work, the luckier I get.
* this commentary is absolutely IN NO WAY intended to slight Epoxy7 or anyone else that may feel the MH entrance fee is too steep. We all have the right to determine value within our own frame of financial reference, and I go on record to state I respect everyone's right to their own opinion in this regard.
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Great post, I hope you stick by your guns (no pun intended) and leave up your post rather than deleting should the haters opt to chime in.
I love both of my Modern rifles although I still need to work out loads. I have yet to encounter a FTF , FTE or 3 letter piece of the alphabet with either of my guns
It drives me wild that there is so much negative garbage spewed from a few. Other manufacturers rifles have had serious issues yet strangely this goes unspoken of.Well written oaktree, I'm looking forward to your range reports once you get a chance to do a little load development for it and stretch it's legs and make some holes from 200 yards or more. Hopefully you'll try some 168 and 175 grain projectiles as well.
The z8i is a nice piece of glass. I also have a Z6i and comparing the two, I wouldn't move from the 6 to the 8 just "because". Both have stellar glass and are of similar weight. Th z8i is significantly more money than the z6i so I'd sooner buy another z6i. $1800 vs $2800. Putting the $ aside, I would go for the z8i just to get the extra zoom factor. I always hunt with a scope set at 1x. On the range, I crank it to make it easier to see the target and on the range, more power is better, so the z8i is more versatile from that perspective. Ergonomics are somewhat improved on the z8i. The illuminated red dot cross hair centre is more usable on the z8i with the low setting perfect for near dark conditions because it lights up ultra dim. Night hunting is illegal in my parts, but think Africa and a leopard blind. The high setting is nice and bright and easy to use in ultra fast shooting situations, similar to a good reflex red dot. Of course there is a control to change the light level manually. I did a box drill test on the z6i and found it to be perfect with a bang on return to zero. I have not as yet found the time or motivation to test the z8i this way, but I expect it to perform similarly. I have tested a couple of other Swaros in this way in the past and have found them all to test well.
So, the significant jump in price point would have me buy another z6i before another z8i, but overall the z8i's improved ergonomics and zoom factor win the day. Glass is tip top in either. On the other hand, if I wanted a scope that would do dangerous game up close and personal as well as something that might smack a gemsbok in Namibia's often desert like arid and longer shooting conditions, I might eat the wallet pain and go for the z8i.
Please note that my frame of reference is a scope primarily for hunting. To me this demands a scope that has a 1x setting at the low end of the zoom scale for the type of hunting I do. Eastern Canada whitetail - quick and thick forest with a VERY occasional trip overseas.
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Range report follow up:
Yesterday at 100 yards, I shot for groups using the 155 grain Scenars, CCI LR-BR primers and varget. Brass was f/l resized Winchester, tuned and tweaked to make it consistent, i.e., VERY slight neck turn, just enough to clean it up, flash hole deburred, primer pocket uniformed, trimmed and chamfered.
And the results? Just slightly under 1 MOA for 10 shot groups. Yup, the pistol mag holds 10 so 10 shot groups is what I did. No sense in cheating and shooting the ever popular and highly statistically insignificant 3 shot groups. I think it's bullsh1t to shoot 3 shot groups and brag about the best. I had a couple of early groups with a wild flyer, but I wear that responsibility and can't blame the rifle. I was a little uh, how shall I put it, uh, "beaten" after firing my TRG Lapua, so it took me a bit to settle out and control the flinch.
In conclusion, did the MH run with a target bolt gun? Nope. Did it live up to expectations of a good accurate self loading hunting rifle? In my opinion, yes. Might I be able to tighten up the groups? Maybe/Probably. I will need to go down the path of testing different seating depths, bullets, loads, etc to find out. With the the 100% reliability I've seen thus far, ( some wise sage earlier in the thread declared reliability as the number 1 consideration in a hunting rifle, and I am inclined to agree) combined with the accuracy level, this gun is a keeper. You won't see it on the equipment exchange.
So, make your own personal value judgement, but if you want a non restricted form factor similar to AR10 ergonomics, then a MH is absolutely worth considering.
Yesterday at 100 yards, I shot for groups using the 155 grain Scenars, CCI LR-BR primers and varget. Brass was f/l resized Winchester, tuned and tweaked to make it consistent, i.e., VERY slight neck turn, just enough to clean it up, flash hole deburred, primer pocket uniformed, trimmed and chamfered.
And the results? Just slightly under 1 MOA for 10 shot groups. Yup, the pistol mag holds 10 so 10 shot groups is what I did. No sense in cheating and shooting the ever popular and highly statistically insignificant 3 shot groups. I think it's bullsh1t to shoot 3 shot groups and brag about the best. I had a couple of early groups with a wild flyer, but I wear that responsibility and can't blame the rifle. I was a little uh, how shall I put it, uh, "beaten" after firing my TRG Lapua, so it took me a bit to settle out and control the flinch.
In conclusion, did the MH run with a target bolt gun? Nope. Did it live up to expectations of a good accurate self loading hunting rifle? In my opinion, yes. Might I be able to tighten up the groups? Maybe/Probably. I will need to go down the path of testing different seating depths, bullets, loads, etc to find out. With the the 100% reliability I've seen thus far, ( some wise sage earlier in the thread declared reliability as the number 1 consideration in a hunting rifle, and I am inclined to agree) combined with the accuracy level, this gun is a keeper. You won't see it on the equipment exchange.
So, make your own personal value judgement, but if you want a non restricted form factor similar to AR10 ergonomics, then a MH is absolutely worth considering.
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So is the MH strictly for really talented individuals that know a lot about ballistics, barrels and how to reload?
Im not a reloader nor a scientist, i shoot factory ammo, although good factory ammo, im not going to start reloading and build ammo that can make this thing shoot under 2 moa.
Should I stay away from this gun? is me being underwhelmed and disapointed the inevitable conclusion here?
Im not a reloader nor a scientist, i shoot factory ammo, although good factory ammo, im not going to start reloading and build ammo that can make this thing shoot under 2 moa.
Should I stay away from this gun? is me being underwhelmed and disapointed the inevitable conclusion here?
No, but it is for people that understand that if you want to see 1 moa or better you need to feed it not only premium ammo but try a few different brands/weights of premium ammo to figure out what the barrel likes and you need to know how to shoot a semi auto rifle for groups. Even a Les Bauer that comes with a guarantee sub moa won't shoot tiny little one ragged hole groups if you don't feed it what it likes and it won't do it if you don't do your part. Shooting a semi auto accurately is not as easy as it is to shoot a bolt action accurately.
Most of us won't be regularly shooting this or any other non restricted semi auto off a bench at measured distances trying to make tiny groups. If that is what you want to do then just buy a bolt action. If you want to own a non restricted rifle with more potential than pretty much any other non restricted on the market which is built in Canada with good manufacturer support then this rifle may very well be the best rifle to buy.
All the ingredients used to build this rifle add up to a lot of accuracy potential but if you feed it crap or don't know how to shoot tiny groups you probably won't be happy if you expect to see 1 moa or better, the rifle can only shoot as well as the ammo and the person pulling the trigger.
Absolutely. That being said... the Les Bauer comes with a .5 moa guarantee, as did my $1400 Stag 6R. Not 1 moa. Some AR battle rifles with chrome lined barrels are able to hit the 1 moa mark. I've actually done it with a Norc AR15 that had a match trigger and the barrel was free floated. Ammo was PMC 223 bronze. 1 moa is the goal for a quality CL barrel AR rifle. With the target versions of the AR rifle you are looking for sub .5 moa, not 1 moa. Also the sub 1 moa range is achieved by piston system semi auto non restricted rifle such as the Mini14 target, the ACR, SL8 and PE90 target model. For 308 there aren't many options out there. The M305/M14s maybe with a lot of work and money. The NEA 102 and MDR (later versions for accuracy) are the ones that I'm keeping my eye on.
Why not? I would and do. A buddy and I even ran the RFB through it's paces to see what it could do off the bench. 1.5 moa, 5 round groups was the result with sub 1 moa 3 round groups. I was hoping to maybe hit the 1 moa range and might have got a bit closer using non brass cased ammo, but I traded it towards a SR25. I'd rather have the quality and accuracy of the KAC than the non restricted status of the RFB. That RFB by the way was handy as heck. It was difficult to trade it on, just due to the fact that it so short and handy for a 308. It actually was a tough decision to move it on.
Yes, the rifle will only shoot as good as it's shooter. But... the shooter is only as good a shot as their rifle is capable. If the rifle can only do 1 moa, then it doesn't matter if the shooter is capable of 1/4 moa and vice versa. From what we are seeing, these aren't target rifles. They also aren't serious CQB carbines either (see previous concerns regarding parts used). Are they a hunting or varmint rifle? I don't know. Others that specialize in those disciplines can let us know about those uses. That's really the niche for them as indicated by their names. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in hunting or varminting, so I can't offer an opinion on that aspect.
Probably a good call. You may as well try yours out first and see what you think before taking a hit selling it. You might find you like it as is rather then having to go to a proof barrel.
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I ain't stupid
It is the correct way, otherwise I think I would have had some feeding problems lol. Feed ramps face towards the mag, blah blah blah. Love this forum and the bickering, life could become boring without it
And since it got ignored, I GOT GEN 3 PMAGS TO WORK IN MINE.
Please share how you did so?
Nor do you need to. Former MH owner here, sold my gun out of frustration with the pre-fix charging handle, it put a sour taste in my mouth while trying to figure out what kind of shooting I wanted to do. I fed my FGMM and it was grouping around the 1-moa mark with 3-5 rd groups. As oaktree posted, he was able to get sub-moa with 10 rounds, that isn't accuracy that should have so many people so negative about a gun.
I think too many people are getting hung-up on group size in perfect conditions at a range, is that what you buy a .308/6.5 gas gun for? Figure out how it's shooting at the range, work out a load and then take that knowledge and actually apply it to something. This is something I haven't seen too many people doing in this thread, and I think it counts for a hell of a lot more than bench rest groupings. Do those groups sizes even matter that much?
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/25/how-much-does-cartridge-matter/
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/15/how-much-does-group-size-matter/
Get out and shoot
The point I was making was that even with it's 0.5moa guarantee the Les Bauer won't print 0.5moa if you feed it American Eagle, Winchester white box etc, it requires premium ammo to do that and a good shooter behind the trigger. I read too many reports about the MH not shooting well then you find out the guy was shooting surplus or some other crap ammo.
I did the same thing with my RFB and got the same 1.5moa results with a few different loads but that was the best I could do with it. That's how I shoot a new rifle to find what ammo it likes and to do load development but after that it's playing in the field mostly other than when taking friends to the range. My DPMS LR-308 and Mega Arms 16" build would both shoot sub moa with the right ammo and when looking at the parts list for the MH I don't see any reason the MH shouldn't do the same if someone spends the time to find the right ammo for their rifle.
ATRS Shaun
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I have, repeatedly... but sadly I don't count. Best customer group I've seen posted was 0.384", 5 shots at 100 yards with a 260 using 140gr ELDs. I took his name off the picture as I believe the post has since been deleted and it's not my place to put customers names out where they don't want to be.
Wow, there are some interesting view points on this board!!! I posted my results which I thought were pretty respectable.... I described in detail what load I was using. I didn't detail the fact that it was a load I had never previously shot in this rifle (or any other for that matter). It was my standard go to load with the slight and never before tried by me modification, aka swap of my standard 155 grain SMK with the same weight scenar. Nor did I disclose that I ran my test through a dirty and never cleaned barrel with around 200 rounds through it. I also didn't disclose that I bought my MH with the skinny field weight barrel and did NOT order it with a massively stiff (read accurate) near 1" wide locomotive axle such as one might find on a pure target rifle such as a Les Baer. I could have, but I don't have a desire to lug a heavier rifle than needed in the field. And I avoided it in spite of the fact that my personal belief is that field profile barrels will not usually run with the heavy target bull barrels.
What many don't / won't see is that it just isn't that magical to assemble an accurate rifle although most builder are not capable of performing the utter tedium of ensuring that everything is utterly precisely fitted to perfection - labour and quality parts get in the way for the vast majority of the time. The biggest magic is in the barrel and consistency of bolt lockup. Use of a super thick and STIFF barrel along with perfection in rifling and chambering is paramount to accuracy potential. If there is no interference with the barrel's harmonics and a load tailored to the barrel is selected, then one will probably find superb accuracy. The rest of the gun can be a piece of sh1t so long as the bullet's internal ballistics are pure.
There simply isn't any flies on a MH. It serves it's purpose as an accurate non restricted field ready and reliable hunting rifle in a serious small bore big game caliber aka .308, all wrapped up in evil black baby killer format that will mess with the Fudd's heads. It is extremely well built and uses top flight parts. I have yet to see any el cheapo parts on mine no matter how hard or deep I look. For the doubters, I'd say yes. This rifle is absolutely NOT for you. It's not a target rifle. Nor is it a CQB rifle. (Please explain THAT requirement to you provincial CFO unless you are an active duty SWAT LEO that charges buildings in active shooter situations!). It does however provide better than average self loader accuracy and has to me demonstrated its propensity for field reliability. I'll go even further and state that in the accuracy dept, it will hold its own against most hunting rifle Remchester, browning, Ruger, Weatherby bolt guns that I've ever owned, and I've owned a number of them. Please note that I didn't mention Sako or Blaser rifles here. They are probably the sole consistent exception to generally mediocre out of the box accuracy one find in off the shelf bolt guns. Off the shelf semis are an entirely other dismal discussion for which I've not generally been able to solve for in any meaningful way.
Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, yes, YOUR rifle that surely costs a fraction of an MH consistently shoots really tight sub MOA groups and makes you very happy, and that makes me happy for you and I am absolutely in support of your opinion of what good looks like. You are much better off sticking with whatever brand "x" rifle suits your fancy and your wallet and sense of what you think it is producing for you on the bench or in the field or both 'cause an MH just isn't for you.
