Handgun skeet

[Sunchild2071]

If you want to use a thread to try and stir things up with your negative attitude towards trap and skeet, and to imply insults toward trap and skeet shooters, please start your own thread. Better yet, why not just refrain from posting in this forum at all if you have such a negative opinion of the people that choose to participate in these games?

Response from another thread. So, here is the paramaters of what I am looking for.

I know little about skeet or trap, but in another thread, a thought came to my mind which would be, IMHO, a level of fun and challenge I can get into. As I am not sure that I could get excited about skeet/trap, in the form they are typically in. To be more specific, if 25/25 is possible, then I find that the challenge level for a person of my type, is missing something. What I propose, would be extremely difficult, I would think. I'm guessing. But extremely difficult means lots of room for improvement.

The other thread sparked my interest, based on the shotgun used, so I jumped in the thread. Rather than a simple answer to a question, I received information irrelevant to my question. Exception noted to claybuster, who almost gave me some definitive answers (rules) but decided at the same time that he should interject extra unasked info about me "insisting" to shoot my style at a range, and add more info how my type would be very impolitely asked to leave.

So my current understanding is that if you want to get into skeet/trap, but have some unconventional questions, that it is necessary to be ostracized and be told all the things you can't do, and how unwelcome you will be; even if you made no reference to doing what you're not supposed to do.

Enough rambling, I'm trying to set the stage for the question.

For clarity, I'm not insisting I must be allowed on a skeet range, or shoots bullets, or any stuff like that. Please keep answers relevant to the information presented in the question only. Extra fluff and opinions not requested or required.

Is there a rule (skeet/trap in general - OR - skeet/trap in your club) defining or limiting barrel length for shooting? That is the question. As I am talking about an unconventional form of shooting, other related info that would be relevant would be 1) rules specifically defining whether or not you require a stock, 2) rules specifically allowing or disallowing a pistol grip.

To relate why I am asking the question. Taurus "The Judge", a pistol/handgun specifically chambered to shoot BOTH .45 LC and 410. If you think I'm stupid enough to be asking about shooting a .45 at skeet/trap, here's a hint. I'm more intelligent than that. I am talking about shooting the same 410 target load in a pistol/handgun factory designed for that 410 shell, as you would in a 410 shotgun. No farmer stuff, no blasting .45 bullets through the sky at all angles. No opinions on what the CFO would think, that would be a stage further down the line. I'm not even talking about drawing from a holstered firearm. I do have an IQ that is larger than my shoe size, so stupid comments and answers like in the other thread I tried to gain info, NOT REQUIRED. I'm talking about parameters that would all still fall within the realm of safe. With thanks.

I'm talking about what I think would basically be a "new" sport, taking a twist from a current traditional sport. There is a quarter section in the east of Alberta, where you can go for a stroll, and shoot clays from multiple stages, that is a nice twist on "shooting clays" vs. standing in a spot, and shooting in a semi-circle. (a fresh, different way to shoot clays)

So I'm not talking about stupid crazy hillbilly modifcations to anything, not shooting .45 bullets through the sky, not insisting this be allowed. None of that. Just requesting actual rules, in place, in skeet/trap in general, or within your club, that specifically relate to the makeup of the firearm allowed to be used.

The "general" rules, may be more helpful. But any club level rules are certainly relevant.

If you can provide an answer, without the need to imply that I am an unsafe idiot and interject your opinion, it would be greatly appreciated. Answers received within the other thread (I shouldn't have hijacked in, but the thread spawned the idea) have already discolored my opinion of a feeling of "welcomeness" to newcomers or new ideas for the sport, based on a quick calculation of statistical averages using the replies received.

No hijacking this time. Only looking for specific information to the "firearm design compliance" requirements to be able to shoot skeet/trap. Have some land that I'd be all over modifying and working with the CFO to validate to do such type shooting. I'd just like to ascertain whether it requires a start from scratch, or just slight modification of an existing sport.

If you haven't noticed by now, I ramble on alot. However, it seems necessary to define the specifics of what I am looking for.

 

[JIMMY 808]

Most of us are to conservative to answer your questions in a liberal enough way as to not hurt, affend you.

 

[Sunchild2071]

Feel free.

I can freely admit I'm not what anyone would deem as a people person.

I have thick skin.

If you can point me to some specific rules within the parameters of what I am asking for, have at 'er!

 

[Still alive]

I don't shoot trap or skeet.
Your idea is indeed novel! Definitely thinking outside the box.
My concern would be dispersion of shot due to the short barrel lengths of handguns. The clays would have to be launched closer and likely slower to be able to achieve hits which means way faster reflexes from the shooter.
I'm sure there will be obstacles. Objections from Trap and Skeet organizations, types of launchers and size of clays etc.
Also, limited number of handguns that shoot shotshells. The definition of shotshells may also come into question i.e. traditional true shotshells meant to be shot from a shotgun or the shot rounds made like handgun cartridges e.g. the CCI .22 shot.

Since trap and skeet is derived from a hunting sport, I really don't know about the level of interest for handgun shotgunning.
If you want to shoot a handgun at moving targets, maybe try Cowboy Action or IDPA/ IPSC?

 

[bdft]

It sounds like fun to me but a lot of trap and skeet fields won't allow short barrel shotguns for various reasons. Also, many trap and skeet fields are not restricted ranges so any handgun shooting would be prohibited. I think you would shoot a lot of 410 and not hit anything but I could be wrong.

 

[JIMMY 808]

Feel free.

I can freely admit I'm not what anyone would deem as a people person.

I have thick skin.

If you can point me to some specific rules within the parameters of what I am asking for, have at 'er!

Have you at least read any of the rules yet for yourself?

This thread is as far as dream land will go for you anyways...


When it's all said and done there is a lot more said then done.

 

[Betty-Lou]

I would think that the rules would be specific to your club, even if there were "trap" rules you wouldn't really be shooting under those rules because you are doing something different. My home club doesn't specify barrel length, I've shot my coach gun on occasion.
Getting past the traditionalist's and having a shotgun range that is certified for restricted's would be your biggest hurdles.

 

[tiriaq]

As pointed out in the other thread, you would need a trap/skeet range approved for restricted firearms.
Or a range approved for restricted firearms where trap/skeet is an authorized activity.
Range approvals can be very specific about the firearms and activities allowed.

Apart from things like the Taurus, there are shot pistols sold in Canada. Think in terms of a single shot break action shotgun with a pistol grip and short barrel. They appear in the EE from time to time. Then there are the vintage Ithaca Auto-Burglar 20 bore doubles.

So, you would need a shooting facility with CFO and club approval.
Is there such a critter in the country? I've never heard of one.

 

[Grock-co]

I have used my KSG for skeet, it does ok lots of misses. Short barrel, and you are proposing a barrel a third the length of the KSG, I think this would be a game of misses. But maybe shooting ground disks or rabbits it maybe ok.

 

[smally21]

No equipment restrictions at our club, though I think a guy with a .410 handgun on the field might result in a new one lol!

Really, as mentioned, a slower direct presentation like High1 or Low7 could be very possible and challenging.

I'll throw this out there, the best part of skeet for most is watching a bird get dusted. Skeet is quite unsatisfying when birds get missed, so I think the greatly increased misses may be more frustrating than fun.

Without any shooters waiting for the field or that many watching, there is no safety issue in the .410 shot being fired, though the skeet field has few rules regarding muzzle direction vs. a restricted gun range with a firing line, I would think it difficult to satisfy most the handgun on the skeet field was being managed properly.

It's likely one of those things that are perfectly safe when no one is watching, but asinine if someone saw it....

Just read above the rabbit presentation at close range sounds like a great idea!

 

[joeweasel]

Rules on website from 2 Alberta Sporting Clays ranges.

ALL SHOTGUNS MUST HAVE A BARREL THAT IS 26” OR LONGER.
Exceptions for youth and female shooters
Tactical shotguns are expressly prohibited



1. CAN I BRING MY OWN SHOTGUN?

Answer: Yes, however you need to have a valid PAL license, and the barrel length must be 26 inches or greater.

 

[Sunchild2071]

NSSA rulebook, not a thing I can find specific to the subject. So certainly, there could be a stronger possibility to needing to find info at a club level. Or the start from scratch approach, generally formatting to the skeet style.

Still Alive, has some considerations listed, that I certainly have considered and deem as relevant and necessary considerations for viability.

Shooting at a trap or skeet field, from the onset, I do not believe would be a viable option.

However, loosely said, if a person has, even on private property, something that is deemed to be a shooting range with any level of permanancy, it requires CFO approval. I know that is not the exact wording, verbatim.

Setting up an area, in the back 40 of the property, however, as best as I can tell, to remain legal, even for shooting NR, is technically required to have CFO approval. To set this up, I don't think it would be very practical to drag out a bunch of stuff each time, set it all up, shoot, then take it all back down again. That could defeat the requirement for CFO approval, with no level of permanancy, as long as it is safely done. The problem then comes to no way to shoot the restricted there, legally.

Hence, requirement for CFO would need to be involved, period, just because of the Restricted status of the firearm desired.

Will there be a mass following? I'm positive the answer is "unlikely". Agreed there are not a pile of shotgun chambered handguns out there.

So I'm talking a personal level of fun, out on one of the back quarters. Bring a guest or a friend once in awhile. Would need a CFO approval no matter what, based on the restricted status of the firearm. That would include consideration of limiting approval, to the shot shell. Not dissimilar, I'm thinking, from some ranges where calibre of rifles is limited, due to range design.

Also saw "cowboy action" noted above. Perhaps in the end, that could wind up being the final way to settle on something, of this style.

I probably know less about cowboy action, than I do about skeet/trap (which is very little in itself).

I'm trying to think ahead - someday I'm gonna retire. This sounds like something I can do in my backyard. I really don't think I'm going to be jumping all in, tomorrow on this.

Yes, outside the box thinking. To get it to fruition, some brainstorming, and input on areas I may have forgotten to consider, is all helpful to what this would "look" like, in the end. If I liked normal stuff, I wouldn't own a handgun that is also chambered for shotgun.

 

[stubblejumper]

No equipment restrictions at our club, though I think a guy with a .410 handgun on the field might result in a new one lol!

Really, as mentioned, a slower direct presentation like High1 or Low7 could be very possible and challenging.

I'll throw this out there, the best part of skeet for most is watching a bird get dusted. Skeet is quite unsatisfying when birds get missed, so I think the greatly increased misses may be more frustrating than fun.

Without any shooters waiting for the field or that many watching, there is no safety issue in the .410 shot being fired, though the skeet field has few rules regarding muzzle direction vs. a restricted gun range with a firing line, I would think it difficult to satisfy most the handgun on the skeet field was being managed properly.

It's likely one of those things that are perfectly safe when no one is watching, but asinine if someone saw it....

Just read above the rabbit presentation at close range sounds like a great idea!

So your trap and skeet fields are approved for restricted firearms?

 

[tiriaq]

Private property avoids club policies.
Might be easier to get a private trap/skeet field approved - no requirement for a backstop. Just enough land for a shot fall area, no shot leaving the property.
An approved range requires municipal approval. Neighbours will have a say.
And restricted firearms require an approved range.
Want to give it a try? Get one of those Backpacker 12" barrelled shotguns, and have a go at some clays in the back 40 firing one handed.

 

[stubblejumper]

NSSA rulebook, not a thing I can find specific to the subject. So certainly, there could be a stronger possibility to needing to find info at a club level. Or the start from scratch approach, generally formatting to the skeet style.

Still Alive, has some considerations listed, that I certainly have considered and deem as relevant and necessary considerations for viability.

Shooting at a trap or skeet field, from the onset, I do not believe would be a viable option.

However, loosely said, if a person has, even on private property, something that is deemed to be a shooting range with any level of permanancy, it requires CFO approval. I know that is not the exact wording, verbatim.

Setting up an area, in the back 40 of the property, however, as best as I can tell, to remain legal, even for shooting NR, is technically required to have CFO approval. To set this up, I don't think it would be very practical to drag out a bunch of stuff each time, set it all up, shoot, then take it all back down again. That could defeat the requirement for CFO approval, with no level of permanancy, as long as it is safely done. The problem then comes to no way to shoot the restricted there, legally.

Hence, requirement for CFO would need to be involved, period, just because of the Restricted status of the firearm desired.

Will there be a mass following? I'm positive the answer is "unlikely". Agreed there are not a pile of shotgun chambered handguns out there.

So I'm talking a personal level of fun, out on one of the back quarters. Bring a guest or a friend once in awhile. Would need a CFO approval no matter what, based on the restricted status of the firearm. That would include consideration of limiting approval, to the shot shell. Not dissimilar, I'm thinking, from some ranges where calibre of rifles is limited, due to range design.

Also saw "cowboy action" noted above. Perhaps in the end, that could wind up being the final way to settle on something, of this style.

I probably know less about cowboy action, than I do about skeet/trap (which is very little in itself).

I'm trying to think ahead - someday I'm gonna retire. This sounds like something I can do in my backyard. I really don't think I'm going to be jumping all in, tomorrow on this.

Yes, outside the box thinking. To get it to fruition, some brainstorming, and input on areas I may have forgotten to consider, is all helpful to what this would "look" like, in the end. If I liked normal stuff, I wouldn't own a handgun that is also chambered for shotgun.

You can't discharge a restricted firearm except at locations approved for restricted firearms. And in order to get approval for restricted firearms, you are going to have to meet all of the standards set for a restricted firearms range, which are quite extensive. As for a cowboy action range, the targets are on the ground, not in the air, so the standards will be different.

 

[Backwoods]

I would imagine that unless there is a rule I can't see in the club regulations, the Longest Mile in Edson would be a candidate. They have a trap range and are restricted certified.

That said, there may be a club rule I don't see in the fine print. I'd review it with a board member prior to playing revolver skeet.

I have however shot hand tossed clay pigeons with a Magnum Research 45/410 when I was working on a rig in Montana. We did it all the time. But hand thrown were closer than a machine.

 

[Sunchild2071]

Some good stuff there for consideration guys, thanks for your inputs!

 

[Sunchild2071]

Private property avoids club policies.
Might be easier to get a private trap/skeet field approved - no requirement for a backstop. Just enough land for a shot fall area, no shot leaving the property.
An approved range requires municipal approval. Neighbours will have a say.
And restricted firearms require an approved range.
Want to give it a try? Get one of those Backpacker 12" barrelled shotguns, and have a go at some clays in the back 40 firing one handed.

Hey! Awesome idea to legally/safely get kind of a feel for this!

 

[stubblejumper]

I would imagine that unless there is a rule I can't see in the club regulations, the Longest Mile in Edson would be a candidate. They have a trap range and are restricted certified.

That said, there may be a club rule I don't see in the fine print. I'd review it with a board member prior to playing revolver skeet.

I have however shot hand tossed clay pigeons with a Magnum Research 45/410 when I was working on a rig in Montana. We did it all the time. But hand thrown were closer than a machine.

Are all of their ranges approved for restricted? Just because one range is approved for restricted, does not mean that all ranges at the facility are approved for restricted. You need to look at the approvals for each specific range.

 

[Trinimon]

Unless you're standing a couple yards from the pigeon, you're not going to break any from a standard trap/skeet range with a pistol shooting shot ammo. Effective distance of a 410ga #4 shot from a handgun (Taurus Judge) is only 3yrds. Best effective distance is with defensive shot shells which is only 10yrds.