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CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
The Douglas A2D Skyshark
Looks like someone punched the nose in on a Skyraider!
Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
Looks like someone punched the nose in on a Skyraider!
Cottage Hill Bill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Pensacola, FL USA
The A2D is what you get if you leave an A1 Skyraider and an A4 Skyhawk alone in a dark hanger deck.
While parachuting on the Sennelager training ground in Germany, a Bundeswehr 'Starfighter' was pulling a low altitude, high G turn over the drop zone, a big no-no. We got on the horn to RAF Gutersloh and asked what the hell was going on.
Answer - his wingman had just gone down over Bielefeld with a flameout. The pilot chose to fly it into a sports field rather than let it crash into the city. He was one of a long list of victims of the Starfighter in it's low level attack role. There was a 'Starfighter Widow's Club' demanding answers as to what was behind the crashes. Poor maintenance and pilot training was the official answer.
There was a lot of factors that went into the high accident rate of the F-104... The subject seems to come up in this thread once or twice a year.
Many of the pilots in the Bundeswehr when the 104 was adopted, were WWII vets. Imagine going from an ME-109, then cooling your heels for a decade before getting into a Canadair Sabre, then shortly after having to retrain on the F-104. With the Sabre, the controls and handling would be similar to the older prop aircraft, just a much faster aircraft, although still subsonic... But the F-104 was a different beast altogether. Supersonic and designed for it. Even in subsonic flight, the handling would have been entirely different from the earlier aircraft. I'm not sure the pilots were ready for the difference, or sufficiently trained for it. If you try and throw around something like an F-104 the same way you could a prop fighter or even a Sabre, things were bound to end badly.
I'm no 104 expert but I did work on them as an Engine Tech for 4 years in Germany and got a couple of rides in it from a couple of skydiving buddies who were 104 pilots. The 104 didn't handle too much differently than other aircraft but the speed at which things happened made the difference. Transport pilots and Flight Engineers transiting from a slower moving aircraft like a Herc to a 707 found the speed difference was the hardest thing to get used to. Going from a F86 to the 104 would be the same transition only many times more because of the huge speed difference. Couple that to the role of high speed, low level with only one engine and a fairly high turnover of younger fighter pilots, there was going to be some mishaps. A common statement around the fighter wings in Germany in the 70's and 80's was if you wanted to get a 104, just buy a plot of land in Germany and wait awhile.
The J79 engine was fairly high tech for the time as it had variable inlet stator vanes and the afterburner nozzle flaps were variable as well and if there was a hiccup on either, there was very little time to think about anything other than ejecting. We tore down the engines every 100 hours to the last nut and bolt (except the compressor section which was borascoped) and replaced or repaired any cracked or eroded parts and that certainly made a difference but bird ingestion at low lever took out quite a few aircraft. One guy (Bill Bain) bailed out low level after swallowing a flock of birds and his parachute was still opening as he was coming down through the trees and the branches actually arrested his fall. He joined our parachute club to actually see how it felt to hang under a parachute.
It was quite an aircraft for its day and like a lot of other equipment, it certainly was a contributing factor in the Cold War days.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
No doubt a very complex and demanding bird, and far from perfect, but look at the thing.
What a brilliant looking device. If humanity's ever created anything else that looked more like "speed", I haven't seen it.
What a brilliant looking device. If humanity's ever created anything else that looked more like "speed", I haven't seen it.
I keep reading those posts on F-104 and I remembered huge bribery scandal that happened around sale of those.There is no mention of Canada in there but who knows?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
On different topic I came across this cool article/story involving CF-100 equipped Sqn.Story came with few very cool picures hidden in gallery under small CF-100 pix.
Story this came from: http://www.canaero.ca/subpages/Article content/cf-100shenanigans.html
I have a question to those who worked/flew those.Most of the pictures of Canadian CF-100 show "bare metal" aircraft with markings applied yet every plane I saw and some close-up pictures show traces of some kind of finnish on them.
Were those CF-100s actually in "bare metal" or was there come clear coat or silver/light gray paint put on to separate from elements?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
On different topic I came across this cool article/story involving CF-100 equipped Sqn.Story came with few very cool picures hidden in gallery under small CF-100 pix.
Story this came from: http://www.canaero.ca/subpages/Article content/cf-100shenanigans.html
I have a question to those who worked/flew those.Most of the pictures of Canadian CF-100 show "bare metal" aircraft with markings applied yet every plane I saw and some close-up pictures show traces of some kind of finnish on them.
Were those CF-100s actually in "bare metal" or was there come clear coat or silver/light gray paint put on to separate from elements?
In the early 60's, pretty well all of our military aircraft were bare aluminum with a clear coat to act as a corrosion preventer. The Cosmo (CC-109 or CV-580) was also bare aluminum and a few were regularly polished as the polished ones were used as VIP transport. By the time I got to Germany in the late 60's our 104's were painted camo and later on most of our home based aircraft also got the camo treatment. It wasn't until the early 90's that out Herc's got the camo treatment. Before that all transport aircraft were aluminum with the red striped lightning bolt down the side.
NF-104, one of the 3 converted F104s with rocket booster and RCS as astronaut trainers
Design and flight profile[edit]
The F-104A design was already established as a lightweight, high performance aircraft. For the AST project, emphasis was placed on removing unnecessary equipment, fitting a rocket engine to supplement the existing jet engine, fitting an onboard RCS system and improving the instrumentation required. The following details give the main differences between the production version and the AST:
Wing[edit]
The wingspan of the NF-104A was increased by the addition of wingtip extensions. This modification was needed to house the RCS roll control thrusters and would also decrease the type's wing loading.
Tail surfaces[edit]
The vertical fin and rudder were replaced by the larger area versions from the two-seat F-104 and were structurally modified to allow installation of the rocket engine.
Fuselage[edit]
The fiberglass nose radome was replaced with an aluminum skin and housed the pitch and yaw RCS thrusters.
The air intakes originally designed by Ben Rich were of the same fixed geometry as the F-104A, but included extensions to the inlet shock cones for optimum jet engine operation at higher Mach numbers. Internal fuselage differences included provision for rocket fuel oxidizer tanks, deletion of the M61 Vulcan cannon, radar equipment and unnecessary avionics. A nitrogen tank was installed for cabin pressurization purposes. This was required as there would be no bleed air available from the engine after its normal and expected cutoff in the climb phase.
Rocket engine[edit]
In addition to the standard General Electric J79 jet engine, a Rocketdyne AR2-3 rocket engine was fitted at the base of the vertical fin. This engine burned a mixture of JP-4 jet fuel and 90% hydrogen peroxide oxidizer solution. The NF-104 carried enough oxidizer for approximately 100 seconds of rocket engine operation. The thrust level could be adjusted to maximum or approximately half power by the pilot using an additional throttle lever on the left side of the cockpit.
Reaction Control System[edit]
The Reaction Control System (RCS) consisted of eight pitch/yaw thrusters (four for each axis) and four roll thrusters. They used the same kind of hydrogen peroxide fuel as the main rocket engine from a dedicated 155 lb (70 kg) fuel tank and were controlled by the pilot using a handle mounted in the instrument panel. The pitch/yaw thrusters were rated at 113 lbf (500 N) thrust each and the roll thrusters were rated at 43 lbf (190 N) thrust.
Typical flight profile[edit]
Chuck Yeager in the cockpit of an NF-104A, 4 December 1963
The NF-104A was able to reach great altitudes through a combination of zoom climbing (building up a high speed in a shallow dive at high altitude, and then climbing steeply, converting speed and momentum into altitude) and use of the rocket engine (to reach higher level speeds and to maintain climb rate for as long as possible after entering the zoom climb). A typical mission involved a level acceleration at 35,000 feet (10,700 m) to Mach 1.9 where the rocket engine would be ignited, and on reaching Mach 2.1 the aircraft would be pitched up to a climb angle of 50-70° by carefully applying a load equal to 3.5 g. The J79 afterburner would start to be throttled down at approximately 70,000 feet (21,300 m) followed shortly after by manual fuel cutoff of the main jet engine itself around 85,000 feet (25,900 m) to prevent fast-rising engine temperatures from damaging the turbine stages of the jet engine. After continuing over the top of its ballistic arc the NF-104 would descend back into denser air where the main engine could be restarted using the windmill restart technique for recovery to a landing.[4]
Operational history[edit]
First NF-104A[edit]
The first NF-104A (USAF 56-0756) was accepted by the USAF on 1 October 1963. It quickly established a new unofficial altitude record of 118,860 feet (36,230 m) and surpassed this on 6 December 1963 by achieving an altitude of 120,800 feet (36,800 m). It suffered an inflight rocket motor explosion in June 1971. Although the pilot was able to land safely, the damaged aircraft was retired and marked the end of the NF-104 project. This aircraft was reported as scrapped.
Second NF-104A[edit]
NF-104A Tail Number 760 at the USAF Test Pilot School.
The second NF-104A (USAF 56-0760) was accepted by the USAF on 26 October 1963. After retirement, this aircraft was mounted on a pole outside the U.S. Air Force Test Pilot School at Edwards Air Force Base and can still be seen there today. The extended wing tips, RCS metal nose cone and other parts from 56-0760 were loaned to Darryl Greenamyer for his civilian aviation record attempts using a highly modified F-104. When he was forced to eject during a record flight, his aircraft was destroyed and the parts were never returned.[5]
Third NF-104A[edit]
The third NF-104A (USAF 56-0762) was delivered to the USAF on 1 November 1963, and was destroyed in a crash while being piloted by Chuck Yeager on 10 December 1963. This accident was depicted in the book Yeager: An Autobiography, the book The Right Stuff and the film of the same name. The aircraft used for filming was a standard F-104G flying with its wingtip fuel tanks removed, but otherwise lacked any of the NF-104A's modifications, most visibly the angled-up rocket engine at the base of the vertical stabilizer.[6]
Design and flight profile[edit]
The F-104A design was already established as a lightweight, high performance aircraft. For the AST project, emphasis was placed on removing unnecessary equipment, fitting a rocket engine to supplement the existing jet engine, fitting an onboard RCS system and improving the instrumentation required. The following details give the main differences between the production version and the AST:
Wing[edit]
The wingspan of the NF-104A was increased by the addition of wingtip extensions. This modification was needed to house the RCS roll control thrusters and would also decrease the type's wing loading.
Tail surfaces[edit]
The vertical fin and rudder were replaced by the larger area versions from the two-seat F-104 and were structurally modified to allow installation of the rocket engine.
Fuselage[edit]
The fiberglass nose radome was replaced with an aluminum skin and housed the pitch and yaw RCS thrusters.
The air intakes originally designed by Ben Rich were of the same fixed geometry as the F-104A, but included extensions to the inlet shock cones for optimum jet engine operation at higher Mach numbers. Internal fuselage differences included provision for rocket fuel oxidizer tanks, deletion of the M61 Vulcan cannon, radar equipment and unnecessary avionics. A nitrogen tank was installed for cabin pressurization purposes. This was required as there would be no bleed air available from the engine after its normal and expected cutoff in the climb phase.
Rocket engine[edit]
In addition to the standard General Electric J79 jet engine, a Rocketdyne AR2-3 rocket engine was fitted at the base of the vertical fin. This engine burned a mixture of JP-4 jet fuel and 90% hydrogen peroxide oxidizer solution. The NF-104 carried enough oxidizer for approximately 100 seconds of rocket engine operation. The thrust level could be adjusted to maximum or approximately half power by the pilot using an additional throttle lever on the left side of the cockpit.
Reaction Control System[edit]
The Reaction Control System (RCS) consisted of eight pitch/yaw thrusters (four for each axis) and four roll thrusters. They used the same kind of hydrogen peroxide fuel as the main rocket engine from a dedicated 155 lb (70 kg) fuel tank and were controlled by the pilot using a handle mounted in the instrument panel. The pitch/yaw thrusters were rated at 113 lbf (500 N) thrust each and the roll thrusters were rated at 43 lbf (190 N) thrust.
Typical flight profile[edit]
Chuck Yeager in the cockpit of an NF-104A, 4 December 1963
The NF-104A was able to reach great altitudes through a combination of zoom climbing (building up a high speed in a shallow dive at high altitude, and then climbing steeply, converting speed and momentum into altitude) and use of the rocket engine (to reach higher level speeds and to maintain climb rate for as long as possible after entering the zoom climb). A typical mission involved a level acceleration at 35,000 feet (10,700 m) to Mach 1.9 where the rocket engine would be ignited, and on reaching Mach 2.1 the aircraft would be pitched up to a climb angle of 50-70° by carefully applying a load equal to 3.5 g. The J79 afterburner would start to be throttled down at approximately 70,000 feet (21,300 m) followed shortly after by manual fuel cutoff of the main jet engine itself around 85,000 feet (25,900 m) to prevent fast-rising engine temperatures from damaging the turbine stages of the jet engine. After continuing over the top of its ballistic arc the NF-104 would descend back into denser air where the main engine could be restarted using the windmill restart technique for recovery to a landing.[4]
Operational history[edit]
First NF-104A[edit]
The first NF-104A (USAF 56-0756) was accepted by the USAF on 1 October 1963. It quickly established a new unofficial altitude record of 118,860 feet (36,230 m) and surpassed this on 6 December 1963 by achieving an altitude of 120,800 feet (36,800 m). It suffered an inflight rocket motor explosion in June 1971. Although the pilot was able to land safely, the damaged aircraft was retired and marked the end of the NF-104 project. This aircraft was reported as scrapped.
Second NF-104A[edit]
NF-104A Tail Number 760 at the USAF Test Pilot School.
The second NF-104A (USAF 56-0760) was accepted by the USAF on 26 October 1963. After retirement, this aircraft was mounted on a pole outside the U.S. Air Force Test Pilot School at Edwards Air Force Base and can still be seen there today. The extended wing tips, RCS metal nose cone and other parts from 56-0760 were loaned to Darryl Greenamyer for his civilian aviation record attempts using a highly modified F-104. When he was forced to eject during a record flight, his aircraft was destroyed and the parts were never returned.[5]
Third NF-104A[edit]
The third NF-104A (USAF 56-0762) was delivered to the USAF on 1 November 1963, and was destroyed in a crash while being piloted by Chuck Yeager on 10 December 1963. This accident was depicted in the book Yeager: An Autobiography, the book The Right Stuff and the film of the same name. The aircraft used for filming was a standard F-104G flying with its wingtip fuel tanks removed, but otherwise lacked any of the NF-104A's modifications, most visibly the angled-up rocket engine at the base of the vertical stabilizer.[6]
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Tom Wolfe is a hell of a writer, and a real favourite of mine. Like Hunter Thompson with the crazy dialed back about three big notches. The Right Stuff is apparenly fiction-ish in a lot of places, but it's a remarkably good book. Made a good film as well.
Here's the seen referenced by Diopter. The actual story is even more badass than the scene suggests.
Good stuff. I have always been interested in aviation and was unaware of the rocket boosted 104s.
The movie scene was shot with a clean 104. A hot plane of limited endurance.
The flat spin was well done. Eject altitude for a flat spin is 20,000 feet. Below that the chute might not open in time. Plane is coming down fast.
The movie scene was shot with a clean 104. A hot plane of limited endurance.
The flat spin was well done. Eject altitude for a flat spin is 20,000 feet. Below that the chute might not open in time. Plane is coming down fast.
Bubba Yugga
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Midwestern Ontario
A lot of the aircraft of the time had an aluminized paint finish and not bare metal. It was much more protected from the sun and the elements that way.
Just ask American Airlines about the grief they had during their bare metal era.
I once asked my sergeant about it, and he gave me that "implied facepalm" look that I knew never to question again.
Normally the 104 was flown with both pylon tanks and tip tanks because of the small fuselage tanks and it could do Mach 1 in this configuration. After an engine change the tanks were removed and a test pilot would take the clean aircraft up for a Mach 2 run to ensure that the new engine was up to snuff. That was a pretty short flight with a clean aircraft.
The one in the picture abov e contains the only oil tank (it was very specialized) in existence. Fleet stole it from my dad to complete that example
