Canadian made "black" rifle

Kjm1971 said:
If it was restricted they would have never sold 10 of them at that price. I doubt many of the importers really want to see something like the AR moved to non-restricted as they would lose the gouging opportunity bringing in various half-baked over priced non-restricted junk for us to drool over gives them.
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That doesn't quit jive with 70,000+ Tavors sold in 3 years in the US and X95 is pretty much hitting the same volume, in a market where a quality AR15 can be had for the same price and an utility grade AR can be had for 2/3 the cost of the Tavor.
 
^this, I will never sell the wifes X95 or my ACR even if the AR becomes NR tommorow morning.

Love how people moan about rifles based on price... its quite amusing...lol...
 
Yeah, I know the Leader is prohibited by name - I was suggesting it because of its design elements, namely that it's an even simpler AR-18 inspired design. A triangular 3 lug rotating bolt is easier to design and manufacture than an AR- like multi lug bolt.

Couldn't there be a way to alter the basic Leader receiver design enough to make a new, NR variant (similar to what was done for the T97 / T97 NSR)?

Or, borrow the Leader's upper (with the simpler 3 lug bolt), add a picatinny rail, redesign the plastic handguards, add some MLOK and make it compatible with an AR-180 lower?

Since there's already talk of modifying the AR-180 lower to avoid royalties, why don't we examine a similar rifle as well and see where it takes us? The semi-open Leader magazine well (at the front portion) suggests to me that it could be theoretically adapted later on for AK magazines as well.

I'm just spitballing here lol
 
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Milofficer said:
I am aware the Leader is prohibited by name - I was suggesting it because of its design elements, namely that it's an even simpler AR-18 inspired design. A 3 lug rotating bolt is easier to design and manufacture than an AR- like multi lug bolt.

Couldn't there be a way to alter the basic Leader receiver design enough to make a new, NR variant (similar to the T97 / T97 NSR)? Or borrow the Leader's upper and make it compatible with an AR-180 lower? Since there's already talk of modifying the AR-180 lower to avoid royalties, why don't we examine a similar rifle as well and see where it takes us? The semi-open Leader magazine well (at the front portion) suggests to me that it could be theoretically adapted later on for AK magazines as well. I'm just spitballing here.
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no royalties needed on the 180 design. The 3 lug system would require complete engineering, but the ar15 bolt system is well known with drawings available and bolts and barrels in production
 
CanAm said:
no royalties needed on the 180 design. The 3 lug system would require complete engineering, but the ar15 bolt system is well known with drawings available and bolts and barrels in production
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####ing hell lets clone it up Canada style then!
Near clone of the 180 (not 180b) with NR barrel length, AR15 FCG, grip and Mags and Pic rail for the lazer guys. Mod the lower/upper enough that it's proprietary and cannot be "AR18" varianted by the Feds.
Stamped sheet metal all around. Cheap as possible.
 
I think we get it, you want a low cost black rifle plinker, and 180b has been beaten to death.

This holds no interest for me and many others I think, but it will sell and then people will be unhappy.

I seem to recall lots of comments crapping on XCR's being semi auto not worth it due to such an expensive gun needing to be sub moa, blah blah, against it's design intentions or even some basic tuning. -Even when pricing wasn't as high as today.

Now all the sudden so-so semi auto accuracy is okay in a new black rifle design? With 556 / 7.62x39 for plinking? The argument you're making is a 102 in smaller calibers but basing on the 180b receiver because? Reasons. There is a market for 308, and the 102 isn't what it was cracked up to be, and I don't see their quality or pricing getting better.

I think we have a real opportunity to innovate, and consider a multipurpose, multi-caliber supported design (notice I'm not saying quick change). Not a me too Black NR or Copy of this or that. Intentionally thought out design would be nice.

Travis Bickle said:
Cheap, reliable and .308 are getting into that twilight zone of non realistic Canadian gun owner demands once again IMO.
They had a home run with the 102 and ####ed it up because of exactly this. If it's a .308 people want bolt action precision or hell! Then they want bolt action precision in a semi auto. Then they want loose battle rifle tolerance reliability. Then they want it for as cheap as possible. Then we get the 102.....

.308 is expensive. Especially for punching paper and ringing steel, plinking, pop can exploding, close up tactical drills for guys that are into that stuff etc etc 5.56mm can be had in bulk cheap for less than $0.50 a round still, even less when the deals are on. Low recoil means lighter design, less materials, lower cost rifle.
7.62x39mm is temporarily appealing due to current relatively low price on surplus but once the surplus dries up (it will one day) or there is a shortage, it's going to go up and then we're dependent on foreign/international world events to get affordable ammo maybe. Commercial NA produced 7.62x39 is not cheap.

The AR180 is where it's at with moderate revisions (not the AR180b) and some AR15 parts compatibility. Keep the Lower/Upper and the BCG proprietary and there is no chance in hell they can AR variant it.
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Much as the Troy PAR is awesome in many ways, I think most guys here would really like to see a semi auto come out of this.
 
xdmer said:
I think we get it, you want a low cost black rifle plinker, and 180b has been beaten to death.

This holds no interest for me and many others I think, but it will sell and then people will be unhappy.

I seem to recall lots of comments crapping on XCR's being semi auto not worth it due to such an expensive gun needing to be sub moa, blah blah, against it's design intentions or even some basic tuning. -Even when pricing wasn't as high as today.

Now all the sudden so-so semi auto accuracy is okay in a new black rifle design? With 556 / 7.62x39 for plinking? The argument you're making is a 102 in smaller calibers but basing on the 180b receiver because? Reasons. There is a market for 308, and the 102 isn't what it was cracked up to be, and I don't see their quality or pricing getting better.

I think we have a real opportunity to innovate, and consider a multipurpose, multi-caliber supported design (notice I'm not saying quick change). Not a me too Black NR or Copy of this or that. Intentionally thought out design would be nice.
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I have never wanted a precision black gun. It's an oxymoron. I have a bolt action rifle for when I want to break out the calipers and measure dots.
The XCR is a great gun. It's greatest flaw in this country is the cost. Just like every single NR black rifle.
Again, if we could have NR AR15's we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But we can't.
People complain about accuracy in a semi auto black rifle because they expect more than reality can offer. Then they get really mad when fantasies don't come true. Excellent case in point is the recent results from caliber magazine showing the type 81 to be a 5+ MOA rifle and people are losing their minds lol It's a sloppy Chinese Modified SKS action, I guess they were expecting PGW hand load precision again. But it's $1K. That's bang on for the money with iron sights. It's probably reliable as all hell to boot.
Now we just need to build something like it in Canada in 5.56 to address the fact that we can't have an AR and we get bent over a table to buy whatever not as good alternative.
It's very frustrating.
 
Also don’t forget there are many forms of plinking that people can enjoy, not all sessions have to be high speed low drag fully costumed 1000 rounds dump on bad-guy papers. As fun as that is.
 
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Definitely in many ways, but I think a semi is what many are looking for. The PAR is interesting, but I wish they didn't go quite so black rifle with it.

savagefan said:
Guy at the range was shooting a Troy PAR, something similar may have potential here.
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Longarm9 said:
Much as the Troy PAR is awesome in many ways, I think most guys here would really like to see a semi auto come out of this.
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xdmer said:
I think we get it, you want a low cost black rifle plinker, and 180b has been beaten to death.

This holds no interest for me and many others I think, but it will sell and then people will be unhappy.

I seem to recall lots of comments crapping on XCR's being semi auto not worth it due to such an expensive gun needing to be sub moa, blah blah, against it's design intentions or even some basic tuning. -Even when pricing wasn't as high as today.

Now all the sudden so-so semi auto accuracy is okay in a new black rifle design? With 556 / 7.62x39 for plinking? The argument you're making is a 102 in smaller calibers but basing on the 180b receiver because? Reasons. There is a market for 308, and the 102 isn't what it was cracked up to be, and I don't see their quality or pricing getting better.

I think we have a real opportunity to innovate, and consider a multipurpose, multi-caliber supported design (notice I'm not saying quick change). Not a me too Black NR or Copy of this or that. Intentionally thought out design would be nice.
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Well yeah. As i pointed out above, the XCR's shortcomings are 1. Heavy (at least the original models). 2. Mediocre accuracy and 3. Price. It's a 2 moa average gun AT BEST, that is priced like a Noveski AR. If it was an AR, it would be $600 buck tops.

Take what the XCR is (in it's lightweight config) for $1000 and you couldn't keep them on the shelves.
 
I hear you, purpose build 556 and 7.62x39 is needed as is 308. Long shots for a project like this. I was surprised by the T81 accuracy, but don't recall what they were feeding it.

Tolerances and harmonics can be balanced, axial aliment and squared action in a semi will make a big difference. Lots of semi autos aren't designed to support DMR style shooting, but with some thought in this respect to help the person behind the trigger can help.

Clean trigger, tight stock, proper points for mounting bipods or support rests etc.. Little things not directly related to the action can improve the accuracy potential, a lot.

Just an adjustable gas system and a good brake can make a huge difference with various ammo.

Travis Bickle said:
I have never wanted a precision black gun. It's an oxymoron. I have a bolt action rifle for when I want to break out the calipers and measure dots.
The XCR is a great gun. It's greatest flaw in this country is the cost. Just like every single NR black rifle.
Again, if we could have NR AR15's we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But we can't.
People complain about accuracy in a semi auto black rifle because they expect more than reality can offer. Then they get really mad when fantasies don't come true. Excellent case in point is the recent results from caliber magazine showing the type 81 to be a 5+ MOA rifle and people are losing their minds lol It's a sloppy Chinese Modified SKS action, I guess they were expecting PGW hand load precision again. But it's $1K. That's bang on for the money with iron sights. It's probably reliable as all hell to boot.
Now we just need to build something like it in Canada in 5.56 to address the fact that we can't have an AR and we get bent over a table to buy whatever not as good alternative.
It's very frustrating.
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xdmer said:
I hear you, purpose build 556 and 7.62x39 is needed as is 308. Long shots for a project like this. I was surprised by the T81 accuracy, but don't recall what they were feeding it.

Tolerances and harmonics can be balanced, axial aliment and squared action in a semi will make a big difference. Lots of semi autos aren't designed to support DMR style shooting, but with some thought in this respect to help the person behind the trigger can help.

Clean trigger, tight stock, proper points for mounting bipods or support rests etc.. Little things not directly related to the action can improve the accuracy potential, a lot.

Just an adjustable gas system and a good brake can make a huge difference with various ammo.
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They fired everything from Hornady Match stuff to Surplus Chinese.
Across the board in stock config it was aprox 5 MOA average. Again, that's plenty accurate for a loose modified SKS action rifle with sight radius of like 8 inches and irons lol
The price is right too. $1000. Not bad! Seems to be very reliable though they reported some problems they associated to a "bad magazine"
Now we need a Canadian made, "AR similar" rifle in 5.56mm around the same price! :rockOn:
 
So after putting in too much time and energy trying to bring honest discussion to other threads, and getting nowhere - I'm back here to be more positive.

So what are the chances of any discussion here coming into fruition? Is this something Canada Ammo is interested in and how can we participate?
 
xdmer said:
So after putting in too much time and energy trying to bring honest discussion to other threads, and getting nowhere - I'm back here to be more positive.

So what are the chances of any discussion here coming into fruition? Is this something Canada Ammo is interested in and how can we participate?
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Same.
Would like to hear something from companies/dealers who have brought things like this to the table before.
What is the process, what needs to be done etc?
 
Nothing will ever happen that pleases averyone, but if you really want to slay the m10x, you need a cheaper rifle in a similar niche in 7.62x39.

I vote AR180B clone with metal lower in 7.62x39 for $1000 or less.

Should be very doable.
 
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