So the lawsuit is frivolous? The identified garbage parts is a myth? Whether Colt has changed what goes into the rifle or not has no bearing on the fact that they intentionally sold sub standard rifles under their name to maximize profit. Their credibility is in question..
Advice on my first AR
- Thread starter Terentius
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So the lawsuit is frivolous? The identified garbage parts is a myth? Whether Colt has changed what goes into the rifle or not has no bearing on the fact that they intentionally sold sub standard rifles under their name to maximize profit. Their credibility is in question..
From what I understand of the lawsuit it's by a capital investment company trying to recoup money lost when Bold Ideas shut their doors early this year, but I digress as it's not really relevant to the topic. I'll ask again (for probably the 40th time in this thread) how are the rifles "substandard" or the parts "garbage" if there aren't quality complaints about the guns?
Its not that the parts are Garbage... it’s the fact they are built to an unknown standard. Probably decent for you but not TDP Colt Military specification. In other words the manufacturing standards that Colt USA set on its M4 that has decades of data that go into the final product, are not known to be followed for the Expanse Colt Rifle because the parts are made in another subcontracted plant.
So if Colt USA was to make a statement: "Expanse is made to TDP Colt Military specification" in a facility other than Hartford everyone would be satisfied that it is indeed Colt Quality? Parts like barrel and buffer and bolt and BC, firing pin etc. should be disclosed.
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That's a completely accurate and fair point by you, but I haven't seen or heard anyone claim that the Expanse guns are TDP Mil Spec. It's an entry level gun from a reputable manufacturer. The parts being outsourced doesn't mean that Colt's decades of data haven't gone into the final product, or that their manufacturing standards aren't followed. It just means that the parts and/or work is outsourced. It's a common practice in manufacturing of all types. As I previously stated there was no uproar over the Colt Competition rifles, but when the same manufacturer and the same outsourcee got together to make a budget rifle all of a sudden it's became blasphemy to some people*.
*Not directed at you, but rather the "Fake Colt" "Junk" "Garbage parts" crowd.
When I asked about these rifles at various Gun stores. I was told “it’s the same as the military use” line as usual BS. If you look at the marketing it’s deceptive in nature. The average Joe blow who knows nothing will just listen to some idiot that says it’s great and then make the purchase. That buyer will then shoot his gun most likely at most 2000 to 3000 times. Thinking he has put at bare minimum 30 times or as much as 100 times that in there minds. Thus the usual stupid will be passed off to the next fool that will pass the BS info on to the next fool. Cycle of stupid.
I don’t want to mention ranges or dealers that I see doing this time and again. But it happens on a continuous cycle.
The worst I herd was an RSO making a claim he had put more than 50,0000 rds through his Norinco with a straight face in a pissing contest. I don’t need to get into the financial aspects of stupid claims like this but i must say this individual gives advice to people on a daily basis. What a world.
But Colt knows this BS is still out there. And this is what they are aiming for in the market. Pathetic & Sad really.
I don’t want to mention ranges or dealers that I see doing this time and again. But it happens on a continuous cycle.
The worst I herd was an RSO making a claim he had put more than 50,0000 rds through his Norinco with a straight face in a pissing contest. I don’t need to get into the financial aspects of stupid claims like this but i must say this individual gives advice to people on a daily basis. What a world.
But Colt knows this BS is still out there. And this is what they are aiming for in the market. Pathetic & Sad really.
84wh1
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Oh im sure you can run 50k rounds through a norinco. You just need to change the barrel, bolt, gas system and upper receiver 5x. bahaha
Dishonest/uneducated selling by a gun store is hardly anything new. That's the gamble every customer takes when they walk into a gun store without educaton themselves. We live in a time of unprecedented access to information, the responsibility of not knowing what you're buying falls on the consumer.
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I wonder what the OP actually bought?
Hey I Agree 100% but you might be amazed how many people buy stuff especially in the gun market that don’t do any research. Plus look at all the bs now out there on the internet. Lots of Schills. The Age of the Schill is stronger today than ever before. Lol
For example look at the companies listing off parts that are marked too imitate the TDP about there gun. Doesn’t give you an actual picture anymore. When it says MPI marked on the bolt does that mean batch tested ?? What equipment and tooling do they use. What test have been done to make sure the correct steels are being used ??
Lots of corners can be cut. Is that going to make a difference to Joe blow who puts his AR in the closest and takes it out once ? Hell No. That’s what a lot of these commercial grade companies know. When you ask these companies why they built there AR the way they did, I would wager it has little to do with functionality but more to with a marketing checklist.
One thing I will state in totality is the Colt Expanse for a budget AR regardless of version I would take over every other AR in that price range.
Forget the M&P, BUSHMASTER, Windham, or RRA
When it comes to the budget line it’s actual a better choice.
That being said a properly made in factory Hartford LE6920 with a Socom barrel or Gov profile is ideal for most, for a few dollars more.
That’s my conclusion.
Not quite. There would still be the question as to why a Colt rifle is being made outside the Hartford plant and the answer is obvious... Cost savings. If the expanse was in fact made to spec outside Hartford then it likely wouldn't cost less which leads to sub standard parts. As for parts you're absolutely correct, that information should be listed but it isn't which raises suspicion.
Right off the Colt website!
"The Colt Expanse™ M4 carbine puts a Colt quality AR-15 within easy reach of the modern sportsman..."
That would be a very big lie about the expanse as it is not the same quality as the original/traditional Colt AR offerings.
We are all aware(at least those with a little knowledge) that internals are often outsourced. The difference between quality parts and those that are not has to do with how the parts are selected. Some companies test the parts for proper heat treat and dimensions, proof of materials etc. Others simply take the word of the manufacturer and slap the parts into their guns. There is no way to know for sure if your quality parts were/are in fact inspected but there is a little more at risk when CC, Colt USA, DD, LMT, BCM say their parts are milspec and it gets out that they aren't. Those companies have a highly regarded reputation for using only quality milspec components whereas DPMS, Shrubmaster, Dlask, NEA, Norinco etc are all known to offer "budget" guns and no one gets upset when it doesn't run right or a part breaks.
The Colt competition rifle is no different than the expanse, another sub standard offering using the Colt name to make sales. This thread was not about the CCR nor the expanse but the core of the conversation has involved the former. Regardless, both rifles are not Colt quality guns, they have Colt's name on them and that's about it.
You're absolutely right that it is buyer beware. Hence the disclosure that the expanse rifle is not a genuine Colt quality product and the M&P sport II is no different(not that S&W ever made a great quality AR). The other side of the statement is that the retailers have a moral obligation to not lie about the products either. Stoner99 has perfectly explained the concerns with the expanse as well as ratailers and their knoweldge or lack thereof.
Well said Stoner99!!!
They aren't jam-o-matics, no one (Colt included) is pretending they use the same parts, and the 69xx series run about 40% more than the Expanse. It's laughable that you're pretending the average shooter is somehow being taken advantage of.
"The Colt Expanse™ M4 carbine puts a Colt quality AR-15 within easy reach of the modern sportsman..."
Could it be any clearer for you??? Up until the expanse(and the CCR) Colt only ever produced milspec high quality guns from their HARTFORD plant. Advertising the expanse as a "Colt quality" rifle is very close to fraud. The expanse is not made BY COLT nor built in COLT's HARTFORD facility and does not use COLT parts. I am not indicating the rifle doesn't work, I am saying it is not the same level of quality and craftsmanship as the rest of Colt's offerings.
Are you not aware that to the general public "quality" is better indicated by reliability and "craftsmanship" by fit and finish than whether or not something is "Mil-spec"?
It's hilarious that you're choosing this hill to die on after you called a 16 inch barrel with a carbine gas system dumb.
i dont know why you even bother feeding the troll..
I've realized that this guy is a troll LONG time ago....
The guy must be a real hit at parties too..... /s off.
And there is the problem, the general public wouldn't know a quality AR if they fell on it. It's precisely why NEA, Dlask, Norinco and others continue to sell their wares. The average owner shoots 200 rounds a year from a near sterile environment and never gets the gun hot or dirty. They think their low round counts equate to a "reliable" rifle when they don't. They also think a deep even anodizing is the sign of "craftsmanship" which it is not and that the lower the price the better the deal.
Milspec is just that a SPECIFICATION. If your rifle isn't milspec then what spec does it adhere to, are there any specs at all? Not saying milspec is the be all to end all but it is at least a standard that can be used to measure/gauge the level of quality materials and craftsmanship involved. Feel free to enjoy your unknown quality rifle just don't spread BS about it being "just as good as" a known quality brand alternative.
As for 16" carbine gas guns, yes they're dumb. Read a book have a look around, midlength gas is a superior system to carbine and is doable on barrels as short as 14.5". Carbine gas is simply what was used on M4 carbines and is easy to duplicate for the commercial market. It works but is grossly over gassed which increases recoil and wear on parts. The end user(the US military primarily) doesn't care about service life nor the cost to repair/replace them which is why they don't really care if the system is sub optimal. The commercial market also doesn't care because they only sell the guns they don't maintain them. Then again why would a company look into improving performance of their product when they can sell sub standard rifles all day long..
