Why aren't there more modern black shotgun designs?

Dexter Morgan said:
I really don't know why anyone is singling out shotguns here.
Rifles haven't changed either.

Pretty much everyone uses an AR-15 for combat or competition.

These guns were used in the Vietnam War. So not exactly a new design.
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I agree that AR15s are more ubiquitous now than ever, but there have been a number of other newer designs (bullpups, for example) which, while not achieving the same success are still in use today.
 
And let's not forget about handguns folks.
What do you see most often at the range?

1911 pistols? More than 100 year old design.

CZ-75 pistols? More than 40 year old design.

Glock pistols? They're newer. But still more than a 30 year old design.

And don't forget about all of the revolver shooters out there. How old is that design?
 
So there you go Master-G we answered your question in a civilized manor without a major thread derail. :)

Basically. The classic style single tube fed, gate loaded, manual or semi-auto action shotgun is as advanced as you practically need and probably as good as its going to get. Benellis ARGO is pretty much top of the line. 11-87 and VersaMax are good too.

The The rest are mere novilty items in terms of practicality and reliably. Cools guns... but that it.

Mag fed shotguns... that's a whole different thread.
 
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Gatehouse said:
The mag fed shotguns are a great asset to Canadians, who have ill thought out, restrictive storage laws that we must comply with-simply because you can take them from empty to fully loaded in a moment.

This is especially useful in a rural environment as you can have magazines loaded with different ammunition to properly deal with the threat or nuisance at hand.

Bear in the yard causing trouble? Grab the mag of slugs. Cougar, wolf or coyote? Mag of buckshot. Raccon or weasel getting into the chicken coop? Load up the BB's or #2 shot. Crows or rodents? Grab the trap loads. I stuck a Surefire light on the end of mine (easy to do since it has a side rail) and now it's good to go day or night.

And if you decide that you don't need to shoot, just pop the magazine out- no need to work the action over and over to empty the shotgun.
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I want to like them and have been sorely tempted to buy one, but then I come on here and read about FTF and having to "break it in" with hundreds of rounds and think a $200 Ithaca 37 has none of these issues.

While I agree that a slug gun is ideal from bear, in my experience more range is needed for wolf or coyote than buckshot. No experience whatsoever with raccoon. I know for sure that cats will kill weasels. Skunks are best trapped or chase them as far as you can, then use a shotgun.
 
MiG25 said:
I want to like them and have been sorely tempted to buy one, but then I come on here and read about FTF and having to "break it in" with hundreds of rounds and think a $200 Ithaca 37 has none of these issues.

While I agree that a slug gun is ideal from bear, in my experience more range is needed for wolf or coyote than buckshot. No experience whatsoever with raccoon. I know for sure that cats will kill weasels. Skunks are best trapped or chase them as far as you can, then use a shotgun.
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Ithaca 37 or Winchester Model 12 I would strongly recommend.
Lightweight, simple, ungodly reliable, smooth, built like tanks out of all steel old school craftsmanship and you can find them on the EE all day for $250.
I'm a Model 12 fan myself and that's my only shotgun. But I have much respect for the Ithaca 37 as well. They are both two of the all time best slide actions ever made in my opinion.
 
MiG25 said:
I want to like them and have been sorely tempted to buy one, but then I come on here and read about FTF and having to "break it in" with hundreds of rounds and think a $200 Ithaca 37 has none of these issues.

While I agree that a slug gun is ideal from bear, in my experience more range is needed for wolf or coyote than buckshot. No experience whatsoever with raccoon. I know for sure that cats will kill weasels. Skunks are best trapped or chase them as far as you can, then use a shotgun.
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Neither of mine took hundreds of rounds to "break in" but they did work better after a few boxes of ammo. I don't know about you, but I can have lots of fun spending $35 on 100 rounds of 12 guage ammo! Shoot some thrown clays or some pumpkins or whatever you want.

When a coyote is creeping around your barn or chicken coop, or a wolf is in your front yard, buckshot is just fine. When you have to take out a bear around buildings or possibility of overshooting your target, buckshot is also ideal. I killed a yote a couple of years ago that was eyeballing some newborn lambs with a .22 short from an old Winchester pump action rifle, it was a headshot but at that range buckshot would have been just fine. Lots of guy that call coyotes will use a shotgun for close encounters, they even have a shotgun load called "Dead Coyote" which I think is something like 4 buck. I saw it on TV! :)

I almost forgot to mention- these shotguns are great for collecting grouse for dinner when out on a deer or moose hunt, like many BC hunters do. You can hop out of the truck, pop in a magazine and slay a few chickens for a tasty meal on your way back to camp.

I don't think anything is going to be more reliable than a good tube fed pump or semi shotgun, but these shotguns do have their place, in my opinion.
 
Dexter Morgan said:
And let's not forget about handguns folks.
What do you see most often at the range?

1911 pistols? More than 100 year old design.

CZ-75 pistols? More than 40 year old design.

Glock pistols? They're newer. But still more than a 30 year old design.

And don't forget about all of the revolver shooters out there. How old is that design?
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As much as I love SIG's and Glock's I could easily make a case that none of the designs that came after the 1911 are actually improvements.
 
1911+ Browning High Power+ Redhawk in 45 Colt and an 870 Wingmaster. That's all I would need, but all I need isn't all I want though is it.
 
Gatehouse said:
Neither of mine took hundreds of rounds to "break in" but they did work better after a few boxes of ammo. I don't know about you, but I can have lots of fun spending $35 on 100 rounds of 12 guage ammo! Shoot some thrown clays or some pumpkins or whatever you want.

When a coyote is creeping around your barn or chicken coop, or a wolf is in your front yard, buckshot is just fine. When you have to take out a bear around buildings or possibility of overshooting your target, buckshot is also ideal. I killed a yote a couple of years ago that was eyeballing some newborn lambs with a .22 short from an old Winchester pump action rifle, it was a headshot but at that range buckshot would have been just fine. Lots of guy that call coyotes will use a shotgun for close encounters, they even have a shotgun load called "Dead Coyote" which I think is something like 4 buck. I saw it on TV! :)

I almost forgot to mention- these shotguns are great for collecting grouse for dinner when out on a deer or moose hunt, like many BC hunters do. You can hop out of the truck, pop in a magazine and slay a few chickens for a tasty meal on your way back to camp.

I don't think anything is going to be more reliable than a good tube fed pump or semi shotgun, but these shotguns do have their place, in my opinion.
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As I said, I want to like them, maybe I should just shut my mouth and buy one.

I've taken 2 wolves practically from my doorstep and in neither case would buckshot have been a good choice. I did get a wolf once with a 30WCF in buckshot range but that was on a deer hunt. Thinking back on coyotes there was 1 that a shotgun would have been good for. I now keep a 22-250 handy for wolves a coyotes.

I know 2 guys that busted cougars as you describe, both used typical hunting rifles, although one was in a tree a stones throw from his house (treed by his non-hunting dogs).

Do you have a plugged mag for grouse? As I read P17 of the regs the stock 5 rounder is unlawful for hunting other than Big Game with slugs.
 
Dsiwy said:
Well they managed to build a shotgun that a crayon eating marine can’t break, that in its self is revolutionary :p
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Makes me think of this comic.

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MiG25 said:
As I said, I want to like them, maybe I should just shut my mouth and buy one.

I've taken 2 wolves practically from my doorstep and in neither case would buckshot have been a good choice. I did get a wolf once with a 30WCF in buckshot range but that was on a deer hunt. Thinking back on coyotes there was 1 that a shotgun would have been good for. I now keep a 22-250 handy for wolves a coyotes.

I know 2 guys that busted cougars as you describe, both used typical hunting rifles, although one was in a tree a stones throw from his house (treed by his non-hunting dogs).

Do you have a plugged mag for grouse? As I read P17 of the regs the stock 5 rounder is unlawful for hunting other than Big Game with slugs.
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The Derya comes with a 2 round magazine and from what I can tell the MKA 1919 and Derya take the same mags.

Everyone has different needs, and for around my place a shotgun is ideal as there are lots of trees that limit distance as well as there is only really one 100% safe direction to shoot a centerfire rifle at my place, and that is into the big hill behind me. Although the chances of a bullet hitting one of the neighboring properties or the paved roadway is very slim, it's not something to be tested. :)

I've shot bears out of trees with both rifles and shotguns and the shotgun can add a margin of safety in some circumstances.

Ironically, the gun I kill the most stuff with is a very old .22 loaded with those little shotshell rounds, for shooting packrats and mice! :)
 
All of the conceivable shortcomings of a given 870 or 590 can be overcome with different furniture/accessories for the same platform.

Dake21 said:
Because shotguns are now considered breaching tools, not weapons, and an effective range of 50 yards sucks.
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Dsiwy said:
Definitely over looked Benelli.
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Thread should have ended right there.

BeaverMeat said:
Still not a real game changer over the basic design. Name me one tactical combat or police scenario where a quick reloading semi-automatic shotgun is desired? If you have to clear a room full of bad guys why would you risk a man to go Rambo with a shotgun when you can solve the problem with a grenade?

That is why you see almost zero police/military interest in these types of shotgun platforms.
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In the vast majority of tactical or police scenarios, a grenade is usually not an option. Police especially, aren't there to kill people. They are there to arrest bad guys and bring them to court. Most houses in North America would not be built to safely contain all the explodey bits from a fragmentation grenade, especially if you are already inside the house. Here's an example of what happens when you use explosives inside a house that is not designed for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUsNv45ixwM

The advantage to a shotgun in close quarter battle is A) When you smash a door open you aren't then standing in an open door way in between bad guys and the rest of your team with a useless ram in one hand amd your dcik in the other with a stunned look on your face, and B) significantly lower risk of over penetration depending on ammo choice.
 
I'd like to see a well executed tube fed semiauto bullpup offered by a reputable mainstream Western company.

There's no saying if I'd actually buy such a product mind you, but it'd be nice if someone other than the Turks or tiny niche companies would give it a shot.
 
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