Used Type 97 or wait for WK180-C

-Factory full length rail
-Non reciprocating charging handle
-Improved Feed Ramps
-Enlarged fire selector
-Ambi mag release

I don't think bubba means what you think it means

QBZ-97 (5.56 mm Assault Rifle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95

Bubba'd guns: A term used in the firearm community for any firearm modified in a slapdash way.


Example. Taking a good military design like a type 97 and adding a full lenght rail, a reciprocating charging handle, an enlarged fire selector, etc.

Tell me how sawing off a piece of the gun to add a tacticool rail isnt bubba'd.

For more: http://t97.ca/

You get the point.
 
QBZ-97 (5.56 mm Assault Rifle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95

Bubba'd guns: A term used in the firearm community for any firearm modified in a slapdash way.

You get the point.

Can't say I do, because there's nothing slapdash about EMEI making an objectively improved variant of their own rifle. If you examine the receiver and the BCG of the gen2, I would say they're even machined nicer than the Gen1s.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Gen2 with the FTU? I wouldn't call the FTU "bubba'd" either, mind you.
 
For some reason I found Tula 62gr fmj was very nice in mine.
I only really do bulk lots when I buy, never a box of this and a box of that.
Just go all out for a deliveryman crippling 1k crate at a time.

At least it isn't pressure sensitve like an AR can be.
 
QBZ-97 (5.56 mm Assault Rifle)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95

Bubba'd guns: A term used in the firearm community for any firearm modified in a slapdash way.


Example. Taking a good military design like a type 97 and adding a full lenght rail, a reciprocating charging handle, an enlarged fire selector, etc.

Tell me how sawing off a piece of the gun to add a tacticool rail isnt bubba'd.

For more: http://t97.ca/

You get the point.

Don't forget changing the cartridge completely for the North American market.
 
Can't say I do, because there's nothing slapdash about EMEI making an objectively improved variant of their own rifle. If you examine the receiver and the BCG of the gen2, I would say they're even machined nicer than the Gen1s.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Gen2 with the FTU? I wouldn't call the FTU "bubba'd" either, mind you.

How is chopping off the carry handle in your home and bolting on the FTU not a bubba modification.

When you buy cheap bashers like these you're best course of action is to shoot it the way it came until you can afford a decent rifle. Spending money on a Norinco to make it more tacticool is just a waste. By the time you've made it nice you've still got a crappy rifle and you've got enough money tied up in it you could have just bought something decent.

If you like your T97 then that's great and I'm glad you enjoy it but I know that if you were to pick up a Tavor, XCR, ACR, SL8, any $2000+ rifle you would feel the difference and if you couldn't you're just being stubborn.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with owning some cheap bashers, I bought a T81 just for that purpose and also to burn off some of the x39 I have sitting around but I have no doubt in my mind that for $1000 I didn't get $1000 worth of rifle. I paid what the market would support because I wanted one. The T97 obviously fills a niche but I would not consider it a quality firearm in any way.

Everyone starts somewhere and rifles like the T97 and WK180 are where you go when funds are limited and you want to play, but as I said earlier, the T97 is a disposable rifle, no parts support, and no warranty of any kind make it hard to consider as anything other than a toy to play with and hope it doesn't break, at least the WK180 regardless of what it's final version is like quality wise is being distributed by Wolverine which means that any problem you have will be taken care of quickly and professionally. In my mind that makes waiting for the 180 the better choice. I won't be buying one since I already have an Armalite AR180B-2 but if I was looking for a cheap plinker it would be the WK180 or the FX-9.
 
Last edited:
Personally Id rather have a t97 FTU then a Tavor, x95 or SL8! WHY?! because the t97 actually shoulders nice, those 3 you mentioned feel like im either shouldering a brick, or a super soaker lol
 
Personally Id rather have a t97 FTU then a Tavor, x95 or SL8! WHY?! because the t97 actually shoulders nice, those 3 you mentioned feel like im either shouldering a brick, or a super soaker lol

As an owner of a Tavor and a T97, I have to agree with the above. Carrying and shouldering the T97 is much more comfortable than the Tavor. The difference being, when I pull the trigger of the Tavor, I never think twice about whether or not it will go bang.. ;)
 
How is chopping off the carry handle in your home and bolting on the FTU not a bubba modification.

When you buy cheap bashers like these you're best course of action is to shoot it the way it came until you can afford a decent rifle. Spending money on a Norinco to make it more tacticool is just a waste. By the time you've made it nice you've still got a crappy rifle and you've got enough money tied up in it you could have just bought something decent.

If you like your T97 then that's great and I'm glad you enjoy it but I know that if you were to pick up a Tavor, XCR, ACR, SL8, any $2000+ rifle you would feel the difference and if you couldn't you're just being stubborn etc etc etc

Settle down there, sparky. Not only do I have a Tavor, I owned the Tavor first AND my T97 is a Gen1 with a carry handle. And I still love shooting my T97 - which I think does a few things better than the Tavor, if you'd believe it. While I think the FTU is a pricey upgrade to what should be a budget rifle, and not to my taste personally, it is a very well-made upgrade, and a lot of thought was clearly put into how to implement it.
 
Easy down everyone.
I love erything 5.56.
I try to get what I can afford and hold on to it.

The only 5.56 rifles that I have sold are the XCR and an SU16.
I still think that they both have some very good merits.
Sometimes a rifles just is not right for someone.

Now I still have both my Tavors and my T97s.
The ergos of where the controls are are better on the Tavor.
That the saftey on a T97 is under my armpit doesn't really bother me.
Using five round magazines the safyet never sees much use anyway.
At the same time the Tavor feels fat and widely chunky in light of the T97.
I still like them both a lot.

Now go back and re read the OPs first comments.
Loves .22lr and first black rifle.
My first obstacle into black rifle was actually the price.
The used T97 is a great starting pint for the price he found.
Once he gets it and uses it, he will be as much of an addict as any of us have become to 5.56.
Value for fun is a big factor on getting into a new area.

Eventually the OP will move on to more, but it is still a good starting point.

My intro to black rifle was an AR180B by Armalite.
I cringed , hummed and hawed over forking out the princeley sum of $900 for it.
Then it was in my mitts and I have never looked back.
The value for fun factor was enough to make me get further into the sport.
I still enjoy it as much as when I bought it.

I think if you thought of the OPs' question simply as,
is it a good intro buy, then the answer would pretty much be a unanimous yes.
Welcome to this black rifle segment of the hobby Addsome.

No one suggests a B&T APC 223 as a first black ifle???
:rolleyes:
 
Settle down there, sparky. Not only do I have a Tavor, I owned the Tavor first AND my T97 is a Gen1 with a carry handle. And I still love shooting my T97 - which I think does a few things better than the Tavor, if you'd believe it. While I think the FTU is a pricey upgrade to what should be a budget rifle, and not to my taste personally, it is a very well-made upgrade, and a lot of thought was clearly put into how to implement it.

So you've been lucky and got a decent T97 that hasn't needed the magwell opened up or needed any tinkering to get it to run. Not everyone who buys one has been so lucky and having a guy new to this style of firearm end up with one that needs tinkering usually ends up with someone who has no business working on a rifle digging away with a dremel and ruining his rifle. I've read two different threads where that happened and a few more where the rifle wasn't destroyed but still didn't function correctly.

I think of Norinco the same as I do NEA/BCL, they're cheap but you get what you pay for and the chances of getting a messed up one are higher than most other brands. Also since Norinco has no warranty he can't just call the retailer and ask for help or a replacement.

I used to own a Tavor, it didn't do it for me so I sold it. Nothing wrong with it other than my ACR and other black rifles made me smile more when shooting.

As much as I hated the old mini 14 I owned I would still recommended it over a T97 just because you can at least buy parts for them if needed.
I also know a couple gunsmiths who refuse to work on anything Norinco because the parts are inconsistent in quality so they can't guarantee their work unless the customer is willing to spend more than the gun is worth to make it right.

I'm not a Norinco hater by the way, I own 2 M-14's (owned four M-14's, and three 1911's,) one M-14 which I wouldn't sell for less than $3000. It has pretty much everything replaced with quality parts and is a real beauty but I buy Norinco knowing full well what I'm getting myself into.

Anyway, OP you've heard both sides of the story and had numerous suggestions from a bunch of us, the ball is in your court now and the decision is yours. I'm not trying to discourage you from buying a black rifle but just want people considering rifles like the T97 to know what they're getting into and that cheap isn't always the best choice. It gets you into the game now but it could end up being a frustrating beginning.

Also keep in mind that a semi auto 223 is a very hungry beast and if funds are tight you should consider that every pull of the trigger is about $0.50 so buy your ammo in bulk to save a little money.
 
Last edited:
As an owner of a Tavor and a T97, I have to agree with the above. Carrying and shouldering the T97 is much more comfortable than the Tavor. The difference being, when I pull the trigger of the Tavor, I never think twice about whether or not it will go bang.. ;)

lol fair enough!
 
So you've been lucky and got a decent T97

They "lucky" vast majority, yes. All my gun-owning friends have a T97, I have owned 2 different ones over the years, both of which I bought used now that I think about it, and they were all fine. From reports on this board if you ARE an unlucky one, dealers will replace bad rifles (that you bought from them), and people who have sent their rifles away to North Sylva report their rifles coming back fixed, though being North Sylva, they might take their time about it. Getting a lemon when you buy used is always a danger, which is why I encourage people to take the serial number into account. They really were built better every year.

Not everyone who buys one has been so lucky and having a guy new to this style of firearm end up with one that needs tinkering

Are we talking about installing an FTU here or are we talking about stuff like trying to hand-file feed ramps, because these are totally different things done for totally different reasons. While the FTU instructions seem hard to mess up, I would also advise getting a rifle with an FTU already installed from a dealer than trying to do it yourself, if you were so inclined to get an FTU.

But the Gen2 offers so many other improvements to the rifle beyond just the rail, that I'd say that's the better choice if someone wanted a flat top.


I think if you thought of the OPs' question simply as,
is it a good intro buy, then the answer would pretty much be a unanimous yes.
Welcome to this black rifle segment of the hobby Addsome.

This!
 
Last edited:
I have three original carry handle T97s and the only problem is launching casings into space.
(and affording to feed them)
 
I have three original carry handle T97s and the only problem is launching casings into space.
(and affording to feed them)

I was playing with the gas settings on mine last week. I put it on the highest setting for the first time to see what it was like. Yeikes.
 
I was playing with the gas settings on mine last week. I put it on the highest setting for the first time to see what it was like. Yeikes.

Isn't the highest setting for getting a heavily fouled gun running again? I don't think you're supposed to use that one regularly.

Are we talking about installing an FTU here or are we talking about stuff like trying to hand-file feed ramps, because these are totally different things done for totally different reasons. While the FTU instructions seem hard to mess up, I would also advise getting a rifle with an FTU already installed from a dealer than trying to do it yourself, if you were so inclined to get an FTU.

But the Gen2 offers so many other improvements to the rifle beyond just the rail, that I'd say that's the better choice if someone wanted a flat top.

Feed ramps and magwell modifications. These are things that should never need to be done to a rifle, especially by someone without gunsmithing experience.

As for North Silva, well they're pretty much the least helpful importer we've been cursed with in this industry.

I was on the early order list through Canada Ammo and I'm glad they never materialized, I was excited to get one originally but then the reports started coming in about the NS imports and I backed out. I did get a chance to shoot one a couple summers ago. It had a very unique recoil impulse and seemed to function fine with the mags and ammo we were using but the factory sights in the carry handle were pure garbage and with an optic it was more of a chin weld than a cheek weld.
There just seems to be too many posts about problems with magazines and feed lips for me to want anything to do with a gun imported by NS. If buying new I'd make sure the retailer was willing to stand behind the sale with a replacement if there are problems because waiting for NS to deal with things you may as well just buy a new one.

I'm glad you and your buddies have had good luck with the rifles but to me it's like buying an NEA without a warranty. Not a good place to put your money in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Good news! Your problem has been solved. I just received an email from Cabela's indicating that one of my favourite items (i.e. something that I glanced at once while on their website) is on sale. They show the T97 flat top as being currently marked down to $29.99!

Please come back and let us know how that works out when you try to order one for that price! :)
 
Good news! Your problem has been solved. I just received an email from Cabela's indicating that one of my favourite items (i.e. something that I glanced at once while on their website) is on sale. They show the T97 flat top as being currently marked down to $29.99!

Please come back and let us know how that works out when you try to order one for that price! :)

It was actually listed for $30??? Im looking right now and it says unavailable on their site.
 
$700 is a fair deal.
Nothing wrong with the T97 of any generation.
Light, short handy and simple.

The hardest part of getting your first black rifle is going to be the first buy and sticker shock.
Once you own one and start to use it, you will be a 5.56 addict in no time.

As much as I look forward to a WK180C, it will be six months just to catch up on current orders.
That is pending no undiscovered wrinkles.

I actually already have a black rifle, GSG-15. Can't wait to get my first 5.56 black rifle though and the T97 might be it!
 
Back
Top Bottom