What auto shotgun do you think is best for home defence

One interesting point is that heart and brain are protected by about a quarter inch of bone, which provides far more protection than a couple of walls. So if you want to able to go through the quarter inch of bone, you are guaranteed to go through many walls if you miss completely. The "Dr Andreas Grabinsky on Gunshot Wounds" video (16 mins in) shows that a sternum can stop a 40 S&W hollowpoint, so there is a rock and a hard place between something that is reliable against large mammals, and something that won't exit the building. So there is no Magic Bullet, although I wonder about FliteControl #4 Steel shot, I haven't seen any tests but it is birdshot that starts off as a slug.
My brother got 12 stitches in the face during a home invasion, a colleague killed a home invader with the invader's gun (both in UK though), so it isn't all that uncommon.
 
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Jmcc said:
@ Cameron SS

i have worried a lot about penetrating interior walls where my family is located

What are your thoughts on 22lr for indoors?

I have a shot gun but also a fun little GSG-16

I know the stopping power is no where near a shot gun but 3 or 4 centre mass on someone that isnt in any armor would definitely get their attention.
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Well .22 has a lot of advantages over shotguns generally. Typically more accurate. Quieter which means less hearing loss during and after the event. Assuming we are talking a semi auto, either rifle or handgun, then mag capacity and Rate of Fire will be much better. Lower velocity ammo is going to be preferred for penetration factors, but most low velo ammunitions will struggle to cycle a semi properly. I think a 10 shot .22 lr revolver with the slowest ammo you can find is about the best back up gun to a home defense shotgun I can imagine.

Stopping power is a consideration for people with only one round. Put it out of your mind. Generally, the winner of a gun fight will be the first person to score good hits on target. Score first, and keep scoring until the target goes down. As for armour, criminals don't typically bother. But there is a reason why the military teaches its soldiers about hearts and minds: Two in the heart, one in the mind.

At the end of the day, there is no perfect solution when you don't know exactly what you are preparing for. If there was one gun/ammo set up that was perfect for everything and everyone, the internet would be a very boring place. The gun you have is always better than the one you don't. The one you know how to use and are more comfortable with is better than the one that is unfamiliar to you.

Like Maple Leaf Pilgrim said, "understand what happens when you miss". To which I add, "and then act accordingly."
 
Cameron SS said:
Entirely your call, but in my experience against 1/2" dry wall, #4 buck is not much different than 00 Buck. It will penetrate more layers than your typical house has. If you were talking #4 birdshot, then yes, that will be limited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29mEJFFIvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dbtBWp_beo This one is not the best because he shoots on top of previous shots, but you get the idea.

With little ones in my house my tolerance for overpenetration is zero, and typically # 8 or smaller out of an 18" or shorter barrel with a minimum distance of 15 feet is about the only way to guarantee and a direct hit on a wall will not penetrate. I use #9 and a 12" barrel for that reason.
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I've seen #4 buck fail to exit empty plastic milk jugs at less than 20 yards, usually only a pellet or two out of 27 pellet load mind you, but still.

Against more typical household barriers, including some actual interior walls, its was usually stopped fairly easily. Those little .22 cal pellets tend to disintegrate when they hit a sufficiently tough surface.
 
Juster said:
One interesting point is that heart and brain are protected by about a quarter inch of bone, which provides far more protection than a couple of walls. So if you want to able to go through the quarter inch of bone, you are guaranteed to go through many walls if you miss completely. The "Dr Andreas Grabinsky on Gunshot Wounds" video (16 mins in) shows that a sternum can stop a 40 S&W hollowpoint, so there is a rock and a hard place between something that is reliable against large mammals, and something that won't exit the building. So there is no Magic Bullet, although I wonder about FliteControl #4 Steel shot, I haven't seen any tests but it is birdshot that starts off as a slug.
My brother got 12 stitches in the face during a home invasion, a colleague killed a home invader with the invader's gun (both in UK though), so it isn't all that uncommon.
Click to expand...

I know that the sternum is designed to protect the heart and other organs in the upper center line area but my experience has been that they are relatively easy to crack.

I was sparring with a good friend. He was 135 lbs and I was 155 lbs so I was a lot stronger than him. I was gassed out and he was pressing me hard. As I backed away from him I did a weak, snappy (as opposed to a thrust, I was gassed and retreating) back kick. It was kind of a fadeaway back kick, like a fadeway jump shot in basketball.

I didn't think it would stop him but I thought it might give me a little breathing room.

I barely touched him but the heel of my kicking foot made contact with his sternum. He dropped like a stone.

At first I thought he was kidding and then I thought it was a trick because he was a tricky fighter.

I had to take him to Emergency and after X-rays we found out that his sternum was cracked. He said it hurt like a 8itch!
 
870P said:
I've seen #4 buck fail to exit empty plastic milk jugs at less than 20 yards, usually only a pellet or two out of 27 pellet load mind you, but still.

Against more typical household barriers, including some actual interior walls, its was usually stopped fairly easily. Those little .22 cal pellets tend to disintegrate when they hit a sufficiently tough surface.
Click to expand...

If it is just one pellet, I suspect you had some kind of interference where another pellet, the wad, or perhaps the motion of the jug itself robbed the pellet of enough energy to penetrate.

The videos I posted is consistent with my experience. I don't consider a #4 buckshot penetrating 10-12 layers of dry wall "stopped fairly easily"

As for .22, I've shot frozen turkeys at 200 meters and had bullets go clean through. When you said .22cal pellets, did you mean bullets fired from firearm or a pellet from a pellet gun. There is a world of difference between a 800 FPS 14 gr projectile and a 1100 FPS 40 grain projectile. Like approximately 5 times the energy.
 
geologist said:
I had to take him to Emergency and after X-rays we found out that his sternum was cracked. He said it hurt like a 8itch!
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So you actually are Chuck Norris, that explains a lot. Bear websites probably have geologist defence threads :).
There is a lot of randomness with the human body, something that floors one person has no effect on somebody else. Anyway, as least we aren't relegated to pointed sticks yet.
 
Cameron SS said:
If it is just one pellet, I suspect you had some kind of interference where another pellet, the wad, or perhaps the motion of the jug itself robbed the pellet of enough energy to penetrate.

The videos I posted is consistent with my experience. I don't consider a #4 buckshot penetrating 10-12 layers of dry wall "stopped fairly easily"

As for .22, I've shot frozen turkeys at 200 meters and had bullets go clean through. When you said .22cal pellets, did you mean bullets fired from firearm or a pellet from a pellet gun. There is a world of difference between a 800 FPS 14 gr projectile and a 1100 FPS 40 grain projectile. Like approximately 5 times the energy.
Click to expand...

The recovered pellets were pretty damaged. We figured that the ones getting stopped were getting the worst of the stresses of firing and were somewhat deformed even before they hit the jug and flattened out.

Drywall is pretty weak stuff, I bet you could penetrate at least of a couple of sheets even with a projectile from a hunting slingshot, let alone a firearm.

The .22 I'm talking about in this case are the .22 cal pellets of #4 buckshot.
 
Bartok5 said:
Benelli M4 Entry, based on its enhanced ergonomics and handling characteristics over the full-length M4:


20200319-121541.jpg
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What are those high speed cable ties on the pistol grip for?

870P said:
The recovered pellets were pretty damaged. We figured that the ones getting stopped were getting the worst of the stresses of firing and were somewhat deformed even before they hit the jug and flattened out.

Drywall is pretty weak stuff, I bet you could penetrate at least of a couple of sheets even with a projectile from a hunting slingshot, let alone a firearm.

The .22 I'm talking about in this case are the .22 cal pellets of #4 buckshot.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying on the .22. Makes sense now.

I will see if I can set up a test with drywall and a 1/4" ball bearing from a sling shot this weekend. Back of napkin math I think the ball bearing will embed in the second sheet.
 
Juster said:
So you actually are Chuck Norris, that explains a lot. Bear websites probably have geologist defence threads :).
There is a lot of randomness with the human body, something that floors one person has no effect on somebody else. Anyway, as least we aren't relegated to pointed sticks yet.
Click to expand...

:)
 
Cameron SS said:
Well .22 has a lot of advantages over shotguns generally. Typically more accurate. Quieter which means less hearing loss during and after the event. Assuming we are talking a semi auto, either rifle or handgun, then mag capacity and Rate of Fire will be much better. Lower velocity ammo is going to be preferred for penetration factors, but most low velo ammunitions will struggle to cycle a semi properly. I think a 10 shot .22 lr revolver with the slowest ammo you can find is about the best back up gun to a home defense shotgun I can imagine.

Stopping power is a consideration for people with only one round. Put it out of your mind. Generally, the winner of a gun fight will be the first person to score good hits on target. Score first, and keep scoring until the target goes down. As for armour, criminals don't typically bother. But there is a reason why the military teaches its soldiers about hearts and minds: Two in the heart, one in the mind.

At the end of the day, there is no perfect solution when you don't know exactly what you are preparing for. If there was one gun/ammo set up that was perfect for everything and everyone, the internet would be a very boring place. The gun you have is always better than the one you don't. The one you know how to use and are more comfortable with is better than the one that is unfamiliar to you.

Like Maple Leaf Pilgrim said, "understand what happens when you miss". To which I add, "and then act accordingly."
Click to expand...

my thought is this:

my GSG is semi, short and the spare mag fits in the butstock so it can be stored unloaded but easy to find it all together. each Mag has 22 rds so i think it would be adequate to send the message i want (that i really really hope NEVER happens)

the question is, which will go further through interior walls?
1) 22LR
2) 20 Ga target load

obviously 12 ga Target would go further than 20 ga target
 
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