Maybe I missed it. I don’t see a forensic standard for bore diameter. I see one for barrel length. I see he states bore diameter is the largest portion of the barrel. I do not see a legal reference for this claim in his or any document for that matter.
Trudeau and Blair BAN 12 Gauge and 10 Gauge SHOTGUNS!
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Maybe I missed it. I don’t see a forensic standard for bore diameter. I see one for barrel length. I see he states bore diameter is the largest portion of the barrel. I do not see a legal reference for this claim in his or any document for that matter.
CosmiC10R
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For the 100th time... read the 6 page CSAA release before attempting to refute it...
You may find something they didnt... but attempting to refute the point without actually reading what the opinion is based on is a waste of time for everyone...
Ed details the forensic standard there and that's what you need to look at as the basis for the argument...
Read the OIC too... unrealized it's a PITA to read this stuff but its critical we all understand it...
Again... I imagine Ed and Soloman know exactly how these things are applied and that why they were able to identify this problem...
Buzzballer
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So as I understand it after speaking with a Justice of the peace. (And this is just my understanding) The main problem is that there is no definition stated anywhere in the regulation as to how to properly manage bore size. Because this is very ambiguous on the wording of this new OIC, it’s valid to take this issue to A judge where they will be given the choice of creating a definition or passing it up the ladder to the next level court of appeals.
A judge will have to look at existing case law, guidance from similar laws and laws and documents from this country and others for Clarity. I imagine the forensic standard will play a large part in it, as will the definition of barrel length in the Firearms Act. At which point somewhere a judge will make a ruling and then what ever party is not content will push it up all the way to the superior court of appeals.
It really does not matter at all what Bill Blare, The PM, or the RCMP say. The OIC has made this law based on the wording they provided. Which we all know says if the bore is larger then 20mm it creates a prohibited firearm. Their is also a legal argument to be made that this goes against our chartered rights.
What has absolutely blown me away is the amount of firearms owners who have just turned their back on those effected by this new ban. Some where along the line they forgot that this effects all of us. A ban on AR’s is going to take a major hit out of firearms shops and websites, possibly causing layoffs, closing of factories and the companies that build these products.
For *^%€ sakes. Stop thinking about your selves and think about the larger picture here and all the people that will be hit by a law that is full of issues and was forced through with out democratic due process.
A judge will have to look at existing case law, guidance from similar laws and laws and documents from this country and others for Clarity. I imagine the forensic standard will play a large part in it, as will the definition of barrel length in the Firearms Act. At which point somewhere a judge will make a ruling and then what ever party is not content will push it up all the way to the superior court of appeals.
It really does not matter at all what Bill Blare, The PM, or the RCMP say. The OIC has made this law based on the wording they provided. Which we all know says if the bore is larger then 20mm it creates a prohibited firearm. Their is also a legal argument to be made that this goes against our chartered rights.
What has absolutely blown me away is the amount of firearms owners who have just turned their back on those effected by this new ban. Some where along the line they forgot that this effects all of us. A ban on AR’s is going to take a major hit out of firearms shops and websites, possibly causing layoffs, closing of factories and the companies that build these products.
For *^%€ sakes. Stop thinking about your selves and think about the larger picture here and all the people that will be hit by a law that is full of issues and was forced through with out democratic due process.
Deckard
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The grease floats to the top.
trimeal1
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- Republic of Western Canada
Too many people don't get it.
If you force them to admit they ####ed it, it forces them to acknowledge that the legislation is deeply flawed.
When the fudds and good ole boys agree with Bill Blair that their shotguns are exempt without it being included in the legislation they/you are enabling his efforts.
They are never going to actually come for your shotguns, but you need to convince them that they technically must so it forces their hand.
Too many halfwit boomers here are far too willing to throw everyone else in the sport under the bus so long as it means they get warm and fuzzies from Bill Blair that their duck gun is safe.
This is the perfect opportunity to stand up with each other but self serving idiots are standing in the way. But boomers never were the generation to give a #### about anyone else.
If we don't all get on the same page when they are done banning mine, I am going to support them coming for yours.
If you force them to admit they ####ed it, it forces them to acknowledge that the legislation is deeply flawed.
When the fudds and good ole boys agree with Bill Blair that their shotguns are exempt without it being included in the legislation they/you are enabling his efforts.
They are never going to actually come for your shotguns, but you need to convince them that they technically must so it forces their hand.
Too many halfwit boomers here are far too willing to throw everyone else in the sport under the bus so long as it means they get warm and fuzzies from Bill Blair that their duck gun is safe.
This is the perfect opportunity to stand up with each other but self serving idiots are standing in the way. But boomers never were the generation to give a #### about anyone else.
If we don't all get on the same page when they are done banning mine, I am going to support them coming for yours.
Big-boss-man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Importing and Exporting Firearms, Weapons and Devices
Memorandum D19-13-2
Ottawa, May 29, 2019
ISSN 2369-2391
Please note this was writted over a year ago. These shotguns will be illegal according to cbsa
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I read it, several times now. No where does it state how or where to legally measure bore diameter. It states it should be done so without the choke in. Fine. We know that. But it’s irrelevant if we aren’t measuring that part of the barrel. On the first page he makes the statement that bore is the widest diameter. This seems to be his opinion and not based on any legal reference or definition.
Right, we know that. So where does one measure. That is the question. And it’s not defined. Ask a gun smith how they measure bore diameter and ga. I bet it doesn’t include the choke.
CosmiC10R
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Living the Dream in Rural Alberta
That sounds about right...
How the RCMP normally classifies and measures guns will play a big part in a decision... it's a huge part of the overall classification scheme... I, for one, suspect Ed and Soloman know how this is routinely applied...
Explain how they tell the Judge that in this case they didnt intend for the OIC to break the standard of normal classification....
CosmiC10R
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Living the Dream in Rural Alberta
It doesn't matter how a gunsmith measure it for his purposes...
Wouldnt it make more sense how the law measures it for legal purposes...
This is what the road will come to...
How a judge interprets the law (the OIC) based on standards (not necessarily Saami ) and precedent... ( of which the classification system would have to play a part)
Tell you what, if you own a 12 or 10 gauge with chokes, don't worry about some vague pesky OIC. Use it as it pleases you. If you get stopped by any law enforcement, just tell them, don't worry, Bill and Justin said they have not banned any shotguns. If that mysteriously won't fly and you end up arrested, just flash a copy of that Bliar's tweet and see what the judge has to say to you. Feel free to do just that but don't cry, if any or none of the officials won't share your view and you'll end up with criminal charges, because while there is a "tweet" out there but there were also others who told you otherwise and it's perfectly right for you not to believe them. Do as you like, just don't cry later.
Big-boss-man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You really need to see a proctologist troll. You measure at the largest diameter anywhere from the breach to the muzzle. Since bore is the largest diameter from breach to muzzle. Are really this thick? Or just getting off on trolling?
Your entire argument boils down to "the RCMP won't ever take a literal, strict approach to the 20mm rule"
When we have decades of proof that it is exactly what will happen, if not immediately then within a couple short years. The RCMP used to have instructions on how to pin magazines from the states, until some poor bastard ended up on the wrong end of an ambiguous law. Non functional 80% lowers were legal, until some ####### decided that they might, possibly maybe be made full auto, even though you could do the exact same process to a real lower. People have been charged for having incompatible ammo beside restricted guns, people have been charged because the cops thought that they couldn't have opened their safe that fast, so the gun must have been improperly stored.
So go bury your head in the sand, don't fight this obvious accidental overreach, I don't care.
But stop ####ing trying to convince everyone else to do nothing. For God's sake do you people work for gun control groups or something?
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Yes.
A little of both to be honest. But honestly, where does any definition state the bore is the largest diameter? I have not seen one other than what the lawyer spiel stated was his opinion. The saami definition is the only one I’ve actually seen referenced. Maybe I missed others.
CosmiC10R
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Living the Dream in Rural Alberta
The lawyer referenced the "forensic standard of canada"
Where do you think that is derived from...
Has forensic standard been replaced to mean "my opinion"?
The forensic standard is as stated and his interpretation is that based on how the OIC is written and that standard... these guns could meet a definition legally of being prohibited...
Will a judge say the forensic standard of Canada is not as important as manufacturers standards... I doubt it... we will see...
Big-boss-man
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well lets start here in your simple understanding what is bore?
Honest question, maybe I’m missing it but now where does it state that the forensic standard for bore diameter is the widest portion?
The bore is the interior of a barrel of a firearm. Bore diameter, which is the issue at hand, is the interior dimension of the barrel forward of the chamber but before any restrictive choke or expanded muzzle.
