Smokeless Loads for Antiques part 1 - 41 Long colt

sportee

sportee

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Disclaimers first..."never use smokeless powders in antique BP revolver" and the other "Use at own risk".

Now that weve got all of the disclaimers out of the way. Im looking for good powders for low pressure smokeless rounds to be used in antique revolvers.

Ive spoken with a couple of folks that are very experienced in this matter and have had a few powders suggested. My research shows that 5744, 4759 and IMR 4227 should do the trick in a 6" antique revolver with reduced loads. The problem i'm having is i cannot get any of these powders...The word at every shop is "Its on back order...everything is being shipped to Afghanistan".

So my quest is to find a powder that i can actually purchase. The goal: a smokeless powder that i can load with low burning rates and low pressures so i dont blow up my 130 year old Colt. on the other hand...If the burning rate is too slow...unburnt powder and fouling.

The second question deals with pressure signs. I have always loaded with BP. Wanting to switch to smokeless, what signs should i be looking for that indicate that my chamber pressures are getting too high?

So there it is...any suggestions from experience for a good powder? (Im trying to stay well below 2400 in burning rate) and...what signs of pressure should i be watching for as i build up to the velocity i need?

thanks
 
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The world of pressure signs is for modern guns that use very high pressures. The first pressure sign you are likely to see in a vintage gun is an explosion of metal and gas. You have to stay way under anything remotely high pressure. This is where the basic rules of using smokeless for BP cartridges come in:

1. Always use a powder slower than 2400
2. Never go over original BP velocities
3. Keep all other things equal (same bullet weight, etc.)
4. Keep E.S. to BP levels

With more experience, you can bend these rules a bit.

Now to your problem. One solution would be to get a table of powders showing their relative burning speeds. My Hornady reloading manual has a table like that near the front of the book. Look for powders somewhere between IMR 3031 and IMR SR4759 and then see if your local supplier has one somewhere in that range. A problem with that is that you might not be able to work up a capacity load (too slow or too fast). Find out what your local store has and then post it here, along with the cartridge you want to reload for. I can then recommend a powder.
 
I have not shot smokeless in a BP revolver, but have shot quite a bit in BP rifles (Snider Enfield, Swedish Rolling Block, Swiss Vetterli, Dutch Beaumont, etc.). The same general principles will apply.

Good points above. The most important rule of thumb is to use the slowest powder that will burn reliably and not exceed the max BP velocity with the original bullet weight. If you use faster powders, reduce your velocity expectations. Some unburnt powder ("clinkers") are harmless, its reliable, consistent igntion you want. For example, in the Snider, anything slower than H4227 is unreliable, and my load for that is 1200 fps with a 480gr bullet. When I use Unique, I use much less powder, but limit my max velocity to 1000 fps.

Find out what pressures the original BP loads generated, then have a look at the Hodgdon site for the starting "Cowboy" loads. They give pressures and have several loads in the 10,000 CUP region.
 
I have been using alot of triple 7 I know it's not smokeless but it cleans so easy and without all the pressure worries other than that I have used blue dot with some.
 
Found some Winchester 748...may be able to pick up a half pound of 4759, Ill know tomorrow (fingers crossed)...anything else I could find is wayyy faster than 2400
 
No, No, No, this has been tried and tried, ad nauseum, these powders are too slow for revolver carts. antique or not!! You will be able to see some bullets fly through the air, you will have alot(varying amounts) of unburn't powder, funny sounding report, etc. Stick to the light loads in manuals, use cast bullets(less pressure), if pressure is a concern, try using lighter bullets. The best place to start is either Trail Boss or Black powder, some slower "HANDGUN" powders may work, such as HS-7,Blue Dot, 7625, etc.
 
ben hunchak said:
No, No, No, this has been tried and tried, ad nauseum, these powders are too slow for revolver carts. antique or not!! You will be able to see some bullets fly through the air, you will have alot(varying amounts) of unburn't powder, funny sounding report, etc.
Click to expand...

Ben, this has not been my experience at all. See http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185641

Even IMR 3031 burns cleanly in the 45 Schofield with a capacity load. I've had very good success in both the 44 Russian and the 45 Schofield using these slower powders.
 
Well im likeing Trail Boss powder its Smokeless and is Great for Accuracy.

+ it smells nice :)

Im gona try some of Wins 38 55s Smokeless loads for sure!
 
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With BP ive used Winchester and Federal 100's (small pistol). I found that the Federals were hotter primers. From what ive been reading the guys that used the fast rifle powders such as 3031 insist that you ahve to use magnum primers due to the slower burn rates...I know that trailboss is much faster than BP but have you tried Trailboss in any of those 44R loads?
 
No, I've stayed away from Trail boss because it is a very fast pistol powder, somewhere around Bullseye in burning speed. The only advantage over other fast pistol powders is that it is very bulky, filling up the case better. However, if one uses enough Trailboss to give original BP velocities, one will have a peak pressure much, much higher than BP peak pressures. The number of people using Trailboss in antique pistols any where near BP velocities without any blow-ups yet (and there will be ... it just takes a few hundred or a thousand or so, before the old pistol lets go) is a testament to the real strength of the antique pistol (although that strength is way below modern steels). If Trailboss is used, a person should stay way below original BP velocities ... at least 100 fps below. Personally, I will never use such a fast powder in an antique pistol. There are knowledgeable people that do it, but my experience is with the slower powders. Don't use a published Trail Boss load unless the pressure is also published.
 
X2

Trail Boss is excellent for low velocity loads, i.e. 1000 fps and slower. That is where it excels - when you start working at muzzle velocities below 1000 fps, you want reliability, especially when you start working loads below 800 fps, as the risk of a bullet not exiting the barrel skyrockets. The "bulkiness" factor is I think overblown, as several powders work very reliably in low densities (Unique being a great example and it's been produced for over 100 years old).

Like already said, never exceed BP velocities, and when you match them, do it with the slowest possible powder. If you want to use a faster powder, you need to drop the velocity.
 
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Yep i agree with that about TB i use 6.5 grs in a 45 long colt load as my Max its at about 740 FPS with a 250 Gr bullet.
Thats still .5 of a gr more than the Max load.

This is in a Like new Antique 476 british revolver tho.
 
You can use loads below what the manuals show for Trail Boss.....it remains consistant, my attempts with 4759 showed some bullets barely making it out of the barrel, some hit 2' low,etc.
 
4759 is another powder with the doughnut shape, giving lots of bulk. Normal rifle powders would be better for antique cartridges.
 
IMR 4227 would be a good one to try. It gives me virtually identical performance to 5744. It would work well for the 44 Russian. For larger cases like the 45 S&W Schofield, or the 45 Colt, it might not be quite slow enough for a capacity load.
 
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