Think about it if that is the case than a push feed will wear out faster as the bolt face is inclosed and the spring loaded extractor is forced over the rim every time you chamber a round, on crf it only happen when you single feed .Seriously do you guys even look at how your guns function.
How do you have one in the chamber and a full magazine with a CRF bolt action?
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Think about it if that is the case than a push feed will wear out faster as the bolt face is inclosed and the spring loaded extractor is forced over the rim every time you chamber a round, on crf it only happen when you single feed .Seriously do you guys even look at how your guns function.
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Ageed. I've had a good snicker over this thread. Too many folks out there that haven't learned the skills required for properly maintain or improve their equipment, let alone have an understanding of the engineering of things.
You guys are free to think what you want and do what you want with your own rifles. . I've tried to pass along some old Winchester info that I learned from the greatest generation, the ones that were the original owners of these pre-64 Winchester Rifles. . Have a good evening.
Not much experience with M70's, but 40+ years of experience with Husqvarnas, all four of which I acquired in the 1970's. The two new ones didn't have anything in the accompanying Husqvarna paperwork making reference to loading dos and don'ts. Three of them, the extractor wouldn't ride over the rim if you loaded by dropping a cartridge in the chamber and trying to close the bolt. Bill Leeper fixed that in short order, back when he was working in Calgary. Ditto a Sako, where single loading cartridges into the chamber is not mentioned.
Decades later, they all still extract just as well as they did when I got them back from Bill. I don't wear out barrels using them for target work or varminting, but I regularly shoot them simply because I like shooting them, hunting season or not, so they've had enough time by now for the extractor to get worn or rolled.
Not being a gunsmith, I'm not an expert on metals. But I think I would be a little worried if any of my rifles' steel extractors were soft enough to get dulled/rolled over by passing over a rim made up of cartridge brass.
I'm tempted to rush to the basement, pull my Husqvarnas, Sakos, etc out of the gun safe, put on my jewelers specs, and have a look at the extractor edges on all the rifles I've owned from the 70's and regularly single fed a round into the chamber before closing the bolt. But... my interest is limited only to the discussion, not worry about the possible imminent failure of extractors.
You know, thats a good point. Those old boys who used the old CRF rifles probably knew more about how they functioned mechanically than anyone else.
I guess alternatively a fella could find a ‘smith who builds really nice CRF rifles and does custom work on CRF actions.
I think there is a guy in Langley who specializes in that stuff. Gary… Gary something. Can’t quite remember his last name though. Mighta started with an ‘F’…………..
If gunsmiths like Bill Leeper, Dennis Sorenson, etc are still just youngsters that just aren't aren't old enough yet to qualify as Old Boys and/or haven't worked on old CRF rifles long enough figure out how they function mechanically...
...exactly how many years does it take before gunsmiths reach the august ranks of those officially certified as Old Boys and/or knowledgeable about mechanical function?
I'm also kinda thinking that the original Old Boys (pretty sure they haven't stopped making Old Boys yet) would have had about a total of perhaps 20-25 years of experience with the aforementioned Model 70 when they apparently delivered their pithy Final Word on what you can and can't do concerning those rifles' extractors. Meanwhile, how much gunsmithing was done on Model 70's prior to The Final Word being delivered - versus how much work has been done on Model 70's since then?
I'm thinking there's been a hell of a lot more gunsmithing done on Model 70's since The Final Word judgement was handed down from the mount than was done before that judgement was delivered.
Just askin' for a couple of gunsmiths I know, that's all.
I've bought, owned, sold and collected pre-64 M70's for quite some time. . I recall 2, could even be 3, M70's I bought in the early 90's with wimpy ejection issues. . Normally a M70 will eject a spent cartridge wilh authority but these 2 would just roll the spent cartridge out and sometimes they'd fall back in if the gun was leaning left.
Years back I got to know an old time Winchester collector, that has since passed on some years ago, that most local gunsmiths would remember. I purchased quite a few old Winchesters from him over those years with 3 M70's I still have. . Learned a lot from this friend and he was quite willing to share his knowledge. . Those 2 or 3 M70's with poor ejection he advised I purchase new extractors and back then we could still get new parts easily from the US. . The extractors were very easily replaced and solved the problem right off. . It was then I asked why those extractors would be worn out and he said from dropping the cartridge in the chamber and ramming the bolt closed. . When I compared the old extractors to the new ones it was evident the sharp edges were well rounded off and worn.
Also, back in those times, I picked up a real nice mid 1950's Savage M99F, in 308, that also had poor ejection. . I purchased a new extractor but it was not a direct fit it required some fitting. Still have the gun and it kicks those empties out real good but I load from the magazine every time. Got to be a habit.
Another point is the pre-war M70 instruction manual for loading the gun, one or more rounds, is to press the rounds down into the mag and close the bolt. . This was fine because Winchester main competitor to the M70 was Remington's M30, a CRF built on the US17 platform. In 1941 Remington came out with an improved version, the CRF Model 720, to directly compete with the M70. It was released just shortly before Pearl Harbor with short of 2500 models completed and sent to the US military. The war ended the M720. Sadly as it is an excellent rifle and some years back was given as a trophy for Military Competitive Shooting.
Post war Remington hit the deck with their new Model 721/722 that took full advantage of what was learned from mass production during the war. The receiver was no longer machined from a forging but turned on a lathe and the bolt was a push feed. It was a handsome looking rifle at a price point that chewed at the heels of the M70. . Winchester's post war M70 manual, needing some bragging features, says if necessary a shell can be dropped into the chamber and the bolt closed.
Now having said all this if you still feel the need for one more extra round in your M98 you can slide the bolt out, load the magazine, slip a round into the bolt face behind the extractor and holding the rounds in the mag down stick the bolt back in.
Years back I got to know an old time Winchester collector, that has since passed on some years ago, that most local gunsmiths would remember. I purchased quite a few old Winchesters from him over those years with 3 M70's I still have. . Learned a lot from this friend and he was quite willing to share his knowledge. . Those 2 or 3 M70's with poor ejection he advised I purchase new extractors and back then we could still get new parts easily from the US. . The extractors were very easily replaced and solved the problem right off. . It was then I asked why those extractors would be worn out and he said from dropping the cartridge in the chamber and ramming the bolt closed. . When I compared the old extractors to the new ones it was evident the sharp edges were well rounded off and worn.
Also, back in those times, I picked up a real nice mid 1950's Savage M99F, in 308, that also had poor ejection. . I purchased a new extractor but it was not a direct fit it required some fitting. Still have the gun and it kicks those empties out real good but I load from the magazine every time. Got to be a habit.
Another point is the pre-war M70 instruction manual for loading the gun, one or more rounds, is to press the rounds down into the mag and close the bolt. . This was fine because Winchester main competitor to the M70 was Remington's M30, a CRF built on the US17 platform. In 1941 Remington came out with an improved version, the CRF Model 720, to directly compete with the M70. It was released just shortly before Pearl Harbor with short of 2500 models completed and sent to the US military. The war ended the M720. Sadly as it is an excellent rifle and some years back was given as a trophy for Military Competitive Shooting.
Post war Remington hit the deck with their new Model 721/722 that took full advantage of what was learned from mass production during the war. The receiver was no longer machined from a forging but turned on a lathe and the bolt was a push feed. It was a handsome looking rifle at a price point that chewed at the heels of the M70. . Winchester's post war M70 manual, needing some bragging features, says if necessary a shell can be dropped into the chamber and the bolt closed.
Now having said all this if you still feel the need for one more extra round in your M98 you can slide the bolt out, load the magazine, slip a round into the bolt face behind the extractor and holding the rounds in the mag down stick the bolt back in.
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Id sooner assume the extractors were reshaped/reground to easily jump over a rim of a round loaded in the chamber without much force or having to push on the back side of the extractor
I cant see soft case brass causing issue to a hardened steel extractor other then maybe causing it to chip or crack if the taper on it wont allow it to jump the rim
I cant see soft case brass causing issue to a hardened steel extractor other then maybe causing it to chip or crack if the taper on it wont allow it to jump the rim
Nope.
That was the sound of you missing the humour in watching someone argue with a ‘smith (who does some pretty impressive work on crf actions), about how rifle actions work.
Funnier yet that the sarcasm around old guys who handled rifles occasionally knowing more than well known ‘smiths who take them and improve on them sailed right over your head.
According to Chuck Hawks -
https://chuckhawks.com/controlled_push_feed.htm
Controlled Feed
•Cartridges should be fed via the magazine, not single loaded directly into the chamber, as it is difficult or impossible for the extractor to ride over the rim of a chambered cartridge. Most modern controlled feed rifles have beveled extractors that do allow single cartridges to be loaded directly into the chamber (although it is still best to feed from the magazine), but most classic controlled feed actions, especially Mauser 98's, do not.
Push Feed
•Push feed actions are generally less expensive to manufacture than controlled feed actions, allowing the finished rifle to be sold at a lower price for a given profit margin. This is benefits both the manufacturer and the consumer and is why the majority of today's bolt action rifles use push feed actions. (There are exceptions to this general rule, such as the push feed Weatherby Mark V and Sako 75, which are deluxe actions.)
•Push feed actions allow cartridges to easily be single loaded directly into the chamber and the bolt closed, a nice feature at the range or in the field with an empty magazine when an additional shot is required.
https://chuckhawks.com/controlled_push_feed.htm
Controlled Feed
•Cartridges should be fed via the magazine, not single loaded directly into the chamber, as it is difficult or impossible for the extractor to ride over the rim of a chambered cartridge. Most modern controlled feed rifles have beveled extractors that do allow single cartridges to be loaded directly into the chamber (although it is still best to feed from the magazine), but most classic controlled feed actions, especially Mauser 98's, do not.
Push Feed
•Push feed actions are generally less expensive to manufacture than controlled feed actions, allowing the finished rifle to be sold at a lower price for a given profit margin. This is benefits both the manufacturer and the consumer and is why the majority of today's bolt action rifles use push feed actions. (There are exceptions to this general rule, such as the push feed Weatherby Mark V and Sako 75, which are deluxe actions.)
•Push feed actions allow cartridges to easily be single loaded directly into the chamber and the bolt closed, a nice feature at the range or in the field with an empty magazine when an additional shot is required.
Laughing!
Put it this way ,in 40 plus years of messing with rifles especially CRF I HAVE ONLY EVER REPLACED 1 CRF EXTRACTOR .That was a Husqvarna that had a case stuck in the chamber and a guy used a block of wood to beat it open and snapped a piece off.On the other hand I have replaced dozens of push feed extractors .Especially Remingtons .
The premise that crf should not be closed on a cartridge in the chamber is ridiculous as push feed has to do it every time you chamber a round .Otherwise how would the extractor get over the rim of the case.They both serve the same purpose ,spring loaded to firmly hold the rim to aid in extraction of the cartridge from the chamber.The same physics apply to both types of extraction systems.The only exception being Mauser with an unmodified extractor .
The premise that crf should not be closed on a cartridge in the chamber is ridiculous as push feed has to do it every time you chamber a round .Otherwise how would the extractor get over the rim of the case.They both serve the same purpose ,spring loaded to firmly hold the rim to aid in extraction of the cartridge from the chamber.The same physics apply to both types of extraction systems.The only exception being Mauser with an unmodified extractor .
Gary you and I both know an extractor can be removed and replaced, on CRF, in 2 minutes or less with limited mechanical experience and nothing for tools short of a block of wood for tapping off and on the extractor. . This might be the reason you never had to change any except the one. . Different with the Remington 700 series as that would most likely be a job for a gunsmith or at least someone with some experience in doing so.
No. The reason he seldom had to replace one was because they seldom break or wear out; even if they snap over the rim. Now, some of the newer Winchesters will wear out, single loaded or not, because the damn things are soft.
If one doesn't feel comfortable snapping the extractor over a cartridge rim with his Model 70, he definitely should avoid doing so. He should understand though; he is avoiding something which will do no harm whatsoever. I have three pre-war Winchester bolt actions all have fired thousands of rounds, a goodly portion of which were single loaded ahead of the extractor. They all still work fine.
If one doesn't feel comfortable snapping the extractor over a cartridge rim with his Model 70, he definitely should avoid doing so. He should understand though; he is avoiding something which will do no harm whatsoever. I have three pre-war Winchester bolt actions all have fired thousands of rounds, a goodly portion of which were single loaded ahead of the extractor. They all still work fine.
