Why groups at long range are the same as close range.

Um... cheap bullets have variations in weight... finish... shape... thickness... length.... plus cheap cartridges may have different wall thickness... powder charge... primer ignition... powder humidity....


So you will have velocity spread..... and barrel harmonics.... and the release Point of the barrel will be different.... and the effect of drag won't be consistent....


So yeah.... crap bullets/cartridges will group badly..
 
Maple57 said:
Please mister wizard, I'm going to ignore the obvious inferred ignorance in most of your previous quote, but I would really like you to unpack these quotable words of wisdom for us all.

You said "With #### bullets, your groups will be ####, "

Let's ignore the expanding group part of this story for now and focus on this part... Please explain to us all how cheap bullets group badly... (I think I'm filling in the right blanks for clarity, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

How is it exactly that all the cheap bullets don't hit the same place on target?

What is it exactly about the flight characteristics of cheap bullets that make them group badly even from a good barrel?

Do they magically select a different direction and fly straight in that direction, and the next one simply decides to go some other way?

Do cheap bullets leave the barrel along a different line than the barrel itself?

How exactly to they arrive at different places on the paper?

I can't wait for you to share your personal insights.... without plagiarizing something you pulled off the internet that you don't really understand.
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Because they’re inconsistent it weight, length, BC. Just all the aspects that matter.
 
Maple57 said:
I can't wait for you to share your personal insights.... without plagiarizing something you pulled off the internet that you don't really understand.
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You mean like frequency��������. Or phase. You might want to actually look up the definition of phase............just saying.
 
For a projectile, “orbit” the line of trajectory as has been suggested (laugh), something with its own intense gravity would need to be traveling along that trajectory for the projectile to orbit around, and/or, the projectile would need a way to steer itself in that pattern, and have it’s own propulsion, since he’s suggesting the bullet must rise ie. defy gravity, to move from the bottom most point in its, “orbit” (laugh), to any other point on that, “orbit”. Completely ridiculous.
 
I think of it like this,

From muzzle to target the bullet will stay on a certain track, this track may be one inch in diameter, for example, the variance is caused by bullet imbalance and /or the crown not being perfectly square and/or the bullet leaving the muzzle when the muzzle is not at rest.

So, assuming a one inch variance in flight path, will carry all the way out to 1000+ yards. So excluding environmental factors, varying velocities and whether the bullet's precession does not cause a divergent path.

At 1000 yard events a good load is one that will put 5 into 1/2" at 100m and a little more at 300m 5/8 to 3/4".
On a good day this will translate to between 4-5" at 1000 yards.

A low ES is key to good results, as is rifle/scope mechanics and your ability to deal with the wind.

https://www.google.com/search?q=precessiont+of+a+bullet&rlz=1C1RUCY_enCA822CA822&ei=b3L9YMbRDsbZ-gThpo6wCw&oq=precessiont+of+a+bullet&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BwgAEEcQsA
 
Tokay444 said:
With #### bullets, your groups will be ####, and STILL be worse at distance. Not better. Bullets don’t steer around specific yard line.
A bullet never impacts where the barrel is pointing, unless your target is taped to the end of the barrel. The barrel must point above the target so the bullet can fall to the point of aim.
There is no corkscrew radius. You are literally making that up.

Where is your corkscrew?
https://youtu.be/BPwdlEgLn5Q
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This clearly shows there is no 'corkscrew' effect of the bullet. Any appearance of such is simply atmospheric disturbance of a rapidly travelling spinning projectile. However, I do grant that such an effect may not be observable at the distance shown. Regardless, the idea that bullets 'cork screw' is not corroborated by evidence. It's likely the gyroscopic procession effects are causing the noted grouping observations.
 
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Anthony Nardelli said:
This clearly shows there is no 'corkscrew' effect of the bullet. .
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So you are saying that there is no cork screw based upon a high speed video of a bullet over roughly inch linear inches?

What if the corkscrew path occurs over 30, 50, 80 or 150 yards?

Would that video illustrate that?

How is it that poor quality bullets do not provide accurate groups and yet high quality bullets can?

What exactly causes poor quality bullets to arrive at random places on the target?

Please explain what causes that deviation if not from a corkscrew path caused by bullet imbalance.
 
Maple57 said:
So you are saying that there is no cork screw based upon a high speed video of a bullet over roughly inch linear inches?

What if the corkscrew path occurs over 30, 50, 80 or 150 yards?

Would that video illustrate that?

How is it that poor quality bullets do not provide accurate groups and yet high quality bullets can?

What exactly causes poor quality bullets to arrive at random places on the target?

Please explain what causes that deviation if not from a corkscrew path caused by bullet imbalance.
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You have many questions but the onus is on you for your claim. I am suggesting this particular video shows there is no evidence of the 'corkscrewing' you posited as the OP. Your own photo shows that the alleged 'corkscrewing' happens within a shorter distance than 30 meters, which is actually a vapor trail and not the bullet itself. Presuming the claim of groups getting better at farther distances is true, if I had to venture a guess and suggest possible a explanation, I would say that a bullet in flight has pitch and yaw oscillations that affect accuracy. However, these effects diminish with time and distance as these oscillations stabilize and disappear.
 
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Here is the bullet. htt p s ://hammerbullets.com/product/284-cal-150-shock-hammer/
There is no corkscrew.
Hammer has their own forum. If you want to get laughed you some more, you should ask them over there why their bullets corkscrew.
 
The corkscrew is the spinning vapor trail (water + air), not the path of bullet.

The vapor trail forms directly behind the bullet in a tightly formed ever lengthening spinning cylinder of air. The bullet's spin induces the vapor + air inside that cylinder to spin very fast.

The centrifugal force of that spinning vapor trail forces it outward into a helix pattern, and that is what you see in that photo: it is the expansion of the spinning helix in perfectly still air.

You can see how that vapor trail forms and beginning of how the helix forms in this YouTube video from "Smarter Every Day". If you skip to time 1:20 you will see the first super-slow motion flight of the bullet, as in the thumbnail below, and they also show and explain the shockwave and the physics in easy to understand language. Later in the video several replays of bullet flights from different rifles show the vapor trails and shockwaves.


The bullet does not corkscrew in flight.
 
This thread is STILL going? I can't believe there's 10 pages of discussion about something as ridiculous as a bullet following a huge corkscrew pattern in flight, lol. You guys are funny.
 
rpollock said:
This should keep everyone off the streets for a while!
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Don’t get him stated again. He’s posted that before thinking that is the bullet’s flight path, when in actuality, that the is the bullet’s yaw about its own centre of mass.
Bryan is very approachable online. If you truly believe a bullet can fall in a corkscrew, you should pitch it to him.
 
rpollock said:
This should keep everyone off the streets for a while!


https://youtu.be/KH9SCbCBHaY
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Not this again. Look at the units on the axes of the left graph, it's showing the angle of the bullet relative to its direction of travel, not the bullet's path translating around its flight path.

The "wobble" around the axis of travel is tiny, we're talking a 1/10th of the diameter of the bullet!
 
Anthony Nardelli said:
Presuming the claim of groups getting better at farther distances is true, if I had to venture a guess and suggest possible a explanation, I would say that a bullet in flight has pitch and yaw oscillations that affect accuracy. However, these effects diminish with time and distance as these oscillations stabilize and disappear.
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Ha! - Exactly what I've been saying all along.
 
PSE said:
Ha! - Exactly what I've been saying all along.
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Please note this is speculation on my part. I have nothing concrete to back up this statement. If I had to come up with a flawed visual description, think of a lawn dart that is thrown at a target. It wobbles at first but starts to fly more stable as flies further along. With a bullet, the wobbling is much smaller and relatively minute.
 
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