Waterfowl gun

[MGW]

So does a gas operated design remove a lot of felt recoil compared to an inertia design? I must admit a bit of ignorance here... the stoeger seems to be a pretty good deal! How are the browning silver hunters, winchester super X3 and the remington designs?
Thanks!

 

[alec ouellet]

Beretta X-Trema....You pay more but you have more

Alec

 

[Claybuster]

So does a gas operated design remove a lot of felt recoil compared to an inertia design? I must admit a bit of ignorance here... the stoeger seems to be a pretty good deal! How are the browning silver hunters,and the remington designs?
Thanks!

A gas-operated design spreads the recoil impluse out making it feel softer. It's more of a shove than a punch. Gas designs however are more complex and the reason I'd want a Benelli M2 as a gun strictly for waterfowl is that they are about the simplest and most robust semi-auto shotguns around. There isn't much that can go wrong provided you aren't using really light loads. Inertia guns tend not to work as well with lighter loads compared to gas guns but that's not an issue if you are hunting.

The Browning Silver Hunter and Winchester Super X are essentially the same design. I have some experience with the Brownings. They are good guns but I like the Beretta better. The Remington design isn't as reliable as the Beretta or Browning and qualilty control in new Remingtons is not great.

I've seen and shot the Turkish-made knock offs of the Benellis. I'd rather save my money and get the Benelli. I think it is a better fitted and finished shotgun and is a lot nicer handling. YMMV.

 

[sherlockbonez]

My silver breaks down to exactly 6 parts. 9 if you count the bolts and trigger assembly. I can't imagine how ppl shooting berettas deals with all the little parts in them.

 

[manbearpig]

I've seen and shot the Turkish-made knock offs of the Benellis. I'd rather save my money and get the Benelli. I think it is a better fitted and finished shotgun and is a lot nicer handling. YMMV.

Stoeger is not a Turkish 'knock-off'. Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger are all the same company, and all use the same Benelli Inertia-Drive system.

the Stoeger will work nearly as well as the Benelli but with, obviously, less style and polish and pride of ownership.
if someone is on a budget it will serve them well at $440 compared to $1500-2000 of the Benellis. yes, obviously the Benelli is a better gun... but is it $1500 better? certainly not.

if you want to buy the best semi then shell out the money and get the Benelli. if you want a very good semi at a very good price then get the Stoeger. it all depends on your personal budget whether you want to spend 5x as much for the best, or get a gun thats almost as good for a quarter the price.

i recommend that before you make up your mind, do some forum searches for the Stoeger P-2000 and read up on peoples reviews on it, as well as their inevitable comparisons to the Benellis and Remington 11-87s, etc. then go handle all of them at your local gunstore. dont just take the word of a couple guys in a forum - myself included. look into it more, there are many threads on the Stoeger. it seems to be an overall very well received gun since its recent introduction.

im not advocating either, actually. if i had $2000 to spend i would buy the Benelli. if i had $500 to spend, i would buy the Stoeger, and would be happy with either gun.
keep in mind that the $440 price is only valid at LeBarons till the 24th, and you would also get 20% off of a Benelli or Franchi -- so thats $400 off a $2000 Benelli

 

[Covey Ridge]

Stoeger is not a Turkish 'knock-off'. Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger are all the same company, and all use the same Benelli Inertia-Drive system.

Benelli, Franchi and Stoeger are all distributed in Canada by Stoeger Canada. So is Sako, Tikka and Beretta, but I think that CB is correct and that the Stoeger is made in Turkey. Anyway it sure looks like a Turkish knock off! BTW 95% as good as when it comes to reliability is one screw up in 20! $1500.00 better? In my not so humble opinion it certainly IS!

 

[Covey Ridge]

I did as manbearpig suggested and did a search. One of the first things I found was "made for Stoeger in Turkey" and "licenced by Benelli to use..."

The term KNOCK OFF seems appropriate!

 

[manbearpig]

Beretta owning both lines, and manufacturing its Benelli line in Italy and its Stoeger line in Turkey based on a Benelli design with the Inertia-Drive recoil system that is identical to that in the Benellis, does not make the Stoeger a 'Turkish Knock-off'. it makes it an economy option from the same company, that has chosen to relocate its manufacturing facilities to a place where they dont have to pay assembly line workers 100+k a year.

have you owned a Stoeger and had it fail? unless you have this is all just useless conjecture. 'i had a Stoeger P-2000 and it blew up in my face' or 'i had a Stoeger P-2000 and it failed to feed half the time' are valid points'
'the Stoeger sucks because its made in Turkey and everyone knows that Turkey is a naughty place' is not.


****edit
the funny thing is is that i havent even recommended either of them. all i did was point out that the Stoeger exists as a budget alternative, and a couple of you Benelli guys are all up in arms about it. does the fact that the same inertia drive system that was formerly unique to Benellis is now available for 1/4 of the cost in another gun upset you that much that youll bash it indiscriminately without having owned one?
and for the record - i own two Benellis and zero Stoegers.

 

[Devlin]

I've got an SBE II from Benelli and can't say enough good things about this gun, yes it's pricey there is no question about that. But as others have stated the reliability and performance of this gun makes the pinch to your wallet go away quickly.

As for the Benelli's having trouble with light loads, I've used mine with Remington Nitro 27 2 3/4" 1 ounce trap loads without any problems. I don't think I would try anything lighter than 1 ounce loads though.

The SBE II points beautifully and comes with a shim kit to tune the fit of the gun to you. The other thing I really like about this gun is it's nice and light and easy to carry all day. (Though I used to carry a C6 around all day so take that last statement with a grain of salt... )

I think the best advice you have received here is to go and handle a few of them and see how they feel in your hands. I held the Xtrema II and the Benelli SBE II back to back and the Xtrema felt "fat" when compared to the Benelli. Though I am comparing apples and oranges here with a gas gun and a recoil driven gun.

 

[manbearpig]

I did as manbearpig suggested and did a search. One of the first things I found was "made for Stoeger in Turkey" and "licenced by Benelli to use..."

The term KNOCK OFF seems appropriate!

then you should be quite embarassed when you find out that they are all owned by the same company - Beretta.

how can a company knock off its own licensed product?

the phrase 'turkish knock-off' is close-minded and exaggerated product bashing at its finest.

 

[Claybuster]

then you should be quite embarassed when you find out that they are all owned by the same company - Beretta.

how can a company knock off its own licensed product?

the phrase 'turkish knock-off' is close-minded and exaggerated product bashing at its finest.

Actually it's even worse than a knock-off. At least with a knock-off the final product is beyond the original maker's control. But in this case Benelli went out and made a licensing deal with the Turks so they could sell cheap guns and make some money on the side. Because their name isn't on the gun they don't have to worry about guns that are loaded with tool marks, aren't nearly as well built as the original, handle like a pig on a shovel and frequently don't function all that well compared to the original.

Now let's take a look at the original question on this thread. (I added some emphasis.)

Price isn't a huge issue as I would pay more if I thought that it was really worth it. I understand that a semi is going to cost a lot more than a pump, especially in a Benelli or Beretta. Not going to get a fancy o/u at this point.

Are there any models that are especially good these days?
Thanks!

In that context I think the Stoeger is a poor recommendation and not worthy of consideration.

 

[reckoner1]

In that context I think the Stoeger is a poor recommendation and not worthy of consideration.

+ 1

 

[Covey Ridge]

then you should be quite embarassed when you find out that they are all owned by the same company - Beretta.

how can a company knock off its own licensed product?

the phrase 'turkish knock-off' is close-minded and exaggerated product bashing at its finest.

Not embarassed at all especially since I mentioned the association in one of my previous posts and since I have a Stoegar dealer who lives 25 minutes from my place and have compared all the look similar products. Maybe I missed a few I have seen the Benelli, the Beretta Pintail (sp100) the Franchi and the 2000. The only one that comes close to the Italian made Benelli is the Italian made Beretta Pintail. The 2000 is not a Turkish made Benelli but is a gun that is made by a Turkish company after paying a licence fee to Benelli. It is no way identical to a Benelli! They are not warranted or guaranteed by Benelli. The only connection is the association fo company ownership and distributorship. A company that grows good apples and #### apples does not mean that the #### apples are nearly as good as the good apples.

I realize that you are not pushing one over the other. I actually would have no problem with that! What I have a problem with is the myth that you are perpetuating that one is almost as good as the other for a fraction of the price and that one is only better slightly because of name.

I supect that you do not really know much about these two procucts.

 

[manbearpig]

then by all means dispel that myth with your firsthand accounts of Stoeger failures.

i have several guns with 'tool marks' - they are a fit and finish issue unrelated to function. i can show you a Mosin with tool marks you could file through a door with, yet it continues to function flawlessly and reliably having lived through a World War and countless rounds of ammo.

the Benelli is undeniably a better gun. is that $1500 worth of 'better' necessary for waterfowl hunting? no. is it $1500 better? that depends on where your priorities lie. once you go past a certain price point there are severely diminishing returns for your money.

i dont expect all Benelli owners to give an unbiased opinion about this. however i do think that its absolute bulls**t that some of you guys are perpetrating the myth (see i can bold too) that Stoegers are somehow unreliable, crappy knock-off guns. there are tens of thousands of happy Stoeger owners out there that would prove otherwise, and there is nothing to indicate that they will be any less reliable or safe than their more expensive Benelli counterparts.

the choice between a Stoeger and Benelli has little to do with actual function and reliability and a lot to do about fit and finish and pedigree... neither of which are going to make your ducks any deader. you guys sound like the Ferrarri owners trying to convince everyone else that theyre tragically missing out on life because they purchased a Ford. gimme a break. its a personal decision.
if you want to recommend a gun then by all means extole the virtues of your Benelli, how much you like its fit and finish, how well it has performed for you, whatever. but unless you have actually owned a Stoeger and had it fail on you stop perpetrating myths and gun snobbery.


**edit

I supect that you do not really know much about these two procucts.

i own two Benelli pumps (Nova Tactical and SuperNova), and for the last month have been struggling with the exact same dilemma as described in this thread. i am purchasing an auto and have been weighing the Stoeger P-2000 against the Benelli M2 Field (and the Browning Silver Hunter), ive handled both several times, shot several boxes through the Stoeger, slogged through hundreds of posts on each, and i still cant make up my mind. there is nothing wrong with either gun - both are priced reasonably for what they are. part of me wants the Benelli since i take care of my guns and will probably have it 40 years from now, but another part of my conscience is telling me to just get the Stoeger for simple function alone and save the money. its really a personal decision - there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer.
which is what pisses me off about some of you Benelli guys never having owned a Stoeger yet making it out like theyre going to blow up in his face when he touches off the first round. thats a total crock of s**t.
this decision is exactly the same as deciding between a Ford and a Ferrari. one of them is nicer, but both will get you from point A to point B.

 

[Claybuster]

i have several guns with 'tool marks' - they are a fit and finish issue unrelated to function. i can show you a Mosin with tool marks you could file through a door with, yet it continues to function flawlessly and reliably having lived through a World War and countless rounds of ammo.

Now there is a brilliant comparison. A rifle made in the Soviet Union during the war with a modern semi-auto shotgun.

the choice between a Stoeger and Benelli has little to do with actual function and reliability and a lot to do about fit and finish and pedigree...

If you don't understand what the differences are inside the guns then take a couple apart and compare them. Shoot both of them with a variety of different loads. I have and believe the Benelli is worth the extra money and it's more than just "pedigree".

if you want to recommend a gun then by all means extole the virtues of your Benelli, how much you like its fit and finish, how well it has performed for you, whatever. but unless you have actually owned a Stoeger and had it fail on you stop perpetrating myths and gun snobbery.

I don't have to actually own a gun to see the quality differences. Taking them apart and shooting them is enough. YMMV.

The Benelli is superior to the Stoeger. It is more expensive and from the perspectives of quality of workmanship, reliability and performance it is worth the extra money IMO. The Stoegers I've seen don't impress me even though they are admittedly less expensive. If what matters most is price then buy the Stoeger but don't delude yourself that it's every bit as good as a Benelli but just not quite as pretty.

 

[Covey Ridge]

then by all means dispel that myth with your firsthand accounts of Stoeger failures.

First I might ask you to prove your claim that the Stoeger is 95% as good as the Benelli and is, some how the same or identical? I would expect you to provide first hand knowledge as well since you claim to own two Benilli guns but zero Stoegers. That was zero, wasn't it? Don't want to risk using the bold again.

I will not bore you with how many guns I own or have owned, but I will tell you that I have been involved in the sales of all the products mentioned on this thread for many years and that I deal with unhappy customers on a regular basis, Stoeger customers by their numbers rival those that are pissed off at Remington Express super mags. If I had my way I would not sell them, but that is not my choice. The customer is always right, especially someone as well learned as yourself.

 

[Covey Ridge]

MGW:
Sorry to get sided on our pissing contest. To help with your question. I have had good experience with Winchester SX1, SX2 and am now getting to know the SX3. I have owned several Reminton 1100s, and have shot a few 11-87s. I have owned Berettas 301, 303 and two A390s, and Browning Gold. I have done a lot of shooting with the SBE2, but do not own one. From my experience I would say that Winchester, Bennelli, Beretta and Brownings are very good. I hesitate on the Remington, because over the years I have seen a lot of problems, although I have never experienced one. There are a lot of good ones to choose from and each of us has his favorite, but from experince, of myself and others, I know you get what you pay for.

 

[manbearpig]

The Benelli is superior to the Stoeger. It is more expensive and from the perspectives of quality of workmanship, reliability and performance and is worth the extra money IMO.

we agree on the red part.
but what exactly are you basing the reliability and performance part of your statement on if not pure conjecture?
have you developed a way to assess reliability and performance based on observing tool marks?

i am not advocating the Stoeger, really im not. what pisses me off however is the constant gun snobbery and bashing of products like it by people who have never owned them yet have somehow formed expert opinions on how unreliable they are and how poorly they will perform based solely on their country of manufacture. there are tens of thousands of happy Stoeger owners and i cant find any threads about them failing or being unreliable, yet all of the Benelli owners who have never owned one know all about their unreliability and failures

why the bashing, seriously? can you not just say how much you like your Benelli and leave it at that? let people come to their own conclusions based on handling the gun, the price, online reviews and threads from actual owners.

 

[scout800]

Biakal MP-153 good gun, good price

 

[manbearpig]

First I might ask you to prove your claim that the Stoeger is 95% as good as the Benelli and is, some how the same or identical? I would expect you to provide first hand knowledge as well since you claim to own two Benilli guns but zero Stoegers. That was zero, wasn't it? Don't want to risk using the bold again.

yep, thats zero, just like you
i am not bashing the Benellis at all. in fact i have not said a bad word about them in this entire thread - i have maintained that the Benelli is obviously a better gun, but that someone looking at them may also want to look into the Stoeger as a budget alternative. i suggested that they go and handle both and decide which meets their needs and budget.
ever since i mentioned it as an alternative ive had to be on the defensive, however, since apparently mere mention of Stoeger whips Benelli owners into a frenzy

I will not bore you with how many guns I own or have owned (my point is not about how many guns you have owned, but about what you have not owned yet are openly bashing in a thread), but I will tell you that I have been involved in the sales of all the products mentioned on this thread for many years and that I deal with unhappy customers on a regular basis, Stoeger customers by their numbers rival those that are pissed off at Remington Express super mags. If I had my way I would not sell them, but that is not my choice. The customer is always right, especially someone as well learned as yourself.

and there it is: you sell guns.

how many times does a customer walk into a gunstore and tell the salesperson that he just needs 'a reliable no-frills deer gun that wont break the bank', and the salesman lets him walk out the door with a Stevens 200?

no, dont answer that - its a rhetorical question.