Kyle Precision Arms. Canadian's Holy Grail?

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Very interesting, definately one to watch. I am, however, skepical when I hear that they will make inexpensive parts and arms. If people are paying $2000 - $3000 for a nonrestricted black rifle then it makes no sense to offer one for $1000. The intention may be there but when an analysis is done prior to product release... Well why would they not want to make as much as possible. $1000 AR... I really doubt that, low cost AR180 aluminum receiver... define low cost, I'm thinking $800 - $1000, not that low. Anyway, it is great from the standpoint of having a source of parts that will not or cannot be shipped to Canada. But as far as a Canadian XCR, I doubt that they will produce something along that line for less than what the XCR is now. I hope they prove me wrong.
 
Well,

I'll interject a couple of things here based on some recent mucking about on my part.

Let's look at a .223 black rifle as an example.

For myself, working the lathe, mill, and hand fitting, I just finished putting together a .22 barrel for my AR-15. I spent 10 hours of machine time doing that.

I would suppose that it would be reasonable to expect that a CNC system working at full speed would be considerably quicker than I am, but suppose we say that it would take 2 hours of machine time per rifle to machine it, including barrel, bolt, receiver, etc.

Figure 30 minutes of assembly time by an experienced assembler.

Let's call it $100 an hour for each hour of CNC time. (Not sure what current rates are) but you're at $200 there. Add $15 for the assembler's wages for half an hour.

Add in a barrel blank, at say $150

Add in materiel for the receiver at say $50

Add in materiel for the bolt at say, another $50

If they're using standard AR parts for the trigger mech, a kit for completing a lower is about $100.

Let's add all that up so far:

$565

That's a rough guestimate for the bare bones costing....does not include shop overhead, cost of getting the CNC programs created or tested, etc etc.

Let's say that runs $300 per rifle.

You're up to the better part of $1000 per rifle just to cover my (off the top of my head) cost estimates.

When Kyle Arms does get something to market in the way of a rifle (which I encourage them to do, as a domestic arms manufacturing and R&D capability is a GOOD THING) I hope that they don't rush themselves, and produce a good product that will prove reliable.

When they do bring a rifle to the market, I do not anticipate seeing it below the $1500 mark, but that's the premium we'd have to expect to pay for a Made In Canada rifle. (My comparison arm would be the AR-180B, which sells for about 1000-ish here I think.)

One thing I would ABSOLUTELY EXPECT though would be to find a MAPLE LEAF on the rifle. I would be extremely disappointed to buy a Made In Canada product, and NOT find a Maple Leaf on it.

Those are my thoughts, in a nutshell, and I hope it dissuades those who think that a Made In Canada label is going to make it much cheaper....well...at least we won't have to worry about importation costs and delays. Only production delays ;-)

NS
 
greentips said:
It took a minimum of 2 years to design and bring a rifle to market - even then most have lots of bugs in the beginning becuase they are rushing.

Building a semi auto rifle is not just drawing a picture on a napkin and go with it. Look at MSAR stg 556, Masada, XCR, Kel Tech bullpup.....

As much as I like a non-restricted 308, I am not interested in a rifle that only kinda works. I will only buy things that are tested and frigging work. If you use me as a beta tester, you better set up a budget and warranty reserves for all the going back and forth. It is the reality - mass production always need fine tuning and that a few prototypes could not guarantee the mass produced model work. It is simple- when you have a large sample size you start seeing how off your prototypes are from the optimal.

My opinion is don't hype this up - because it won't come out in a year. If it comes out in a year - most likely it won't be good stuff.
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Just look at the Rhineland R22... Machined really well but had issues....
 
I wouldn't be looking so much for savings on a .308 non-restricted Black/Green as the preferred option of buying a Canadian made product. I vote with my dollars, when I can afford it.
 
NavyShooter said:
When they do bring a rifle to the market, I do not anticipate seeing it below the $1500 mark, but that's the premium we'd have to expect to pay for a Made In Canada rifle. (My comparison arm would be the AR-180B, which sells for about 1000-ish here I think.)
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I think $1500 for a Canadian made non-restricted black rifle seems reasonable to me.

What we should also be thinking about is guns already out there that we are getting hosed on, such as the AR15. What are complete AR15's going for south of the border? $1000. While up here, you're looking at $1500 plus. You're paying a $500 premium mostly because of all the hassle getting them over the border.
 
As one of the posters mentioned, machining parts under licence from some of our US Gunnutz may be an excellent way to get decent product to market and keep this tooling paying for itself.

I seriously think that if they worked out a deal with LWRC to machine the recievers for the .308 up here, we'd stand a chance at getting it approved.
 
Armedsask said:
I think $1500 for a Canadian made non-restricted black rifle seems reasonable to me. What we should also be thinking about is guns already out there that we are getting hosed on, such as the AR15. What are complete AR15's going for south of the border? $1000. While up here, you're looking at $1500 plus. You're paying a $500 premium mostly because of all the hassle getting them over the border.
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Another company in Canada may already be looking at that option ;)However you had better beleive its not cheap -- with the recent US export closures its getting to the point you need a CNC MILL, a CNC Lathe and a $150k bbl machine, plus Annodizing capability, Parkerization, - and a polymer mold. Your looking at 1/2 mil to get into the game - plus land, licensing, etc.The other issue - from someone who has looked into it - its not as easy as getting a licensing agreement with a US company. Due to the nature of the items - the US Dept of State gets involved and many of the items the public wants will be specifically restricted for LE or MIL sale and will require US approved End Users anyway. If it was not -- I (or someone) would have been making Larue, KAC and Magpul items up here already.Secondly reverse engineering -- even with "cutting edge" equipment is not as easy as it seems. If you have a copy of a TDP its much easier -- but those are VERY strictly controlled.
 
Canuck223 said:
As one of the posters mentioned, machining parts under licence from some of our US Gunnutz may be an excellent way to get decent product to market and keep this tooling paying for itself.
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As Kevin said below, licensing US defence technologies is about the hardest and most expensive way to build anything.

I seriously think that if they worked out a deal with LWRC to machine the recievers for the .308 up here, we'd stand a chance at getting it approved.
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I wish that was related. The design is the design which is what the classification is based on, not what country it's manufactured in.
 
dangertree said:
I wish that was related. The design is the design which is what the classification is based on, not what country it's manufactured in.
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Agreed, but when all your company information comes from local sources who are on the same page, and who's brochures are written to promote your unique design, it has to help.;)
 
Just do like most US companies and subcontract every part and just do assembly.

Valmet M78 for example could be all Zastava parts onto a Canadian receiver.
 
Hmm, while probably illegal, immoral, and fattening, with the wide variety of AR-15 derived parts and accessories on the market, and little to no patent protection on any of it, how could the US State Department tell the difference between a reverse engineered part and one where the CAD/CAM file was shared or stolen?

After all, it's not just the mainland Chinese who are into industrial espionage.
 
Not the best way for a new company to start....stealing someone else's stuff and flogging it.

Better to either work in a partnership, or come up with a new idea of their own.

NS
 
tootall said:
And a ball-kick (figuratively speaking of course) to the first guy that says Canada is too small of a market.
If Finland with 5.3 million people can have firms like Tikka, Sako, and Valmet,
if Switzerland (7.5 M) can have Swiss Arms
if Austria (8.3 M ) can have Steyr,
then why can't Canada with 33 M and a HUGE area to actually shoot in, do the same?
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California has population of 37 million... I've seen a lot of guns that have been redesigned specifically for the Californian market. They've only got 4 million more people than we do.

I for one am excited to see what KPA comes up with...
 
Exellent!!!!!!!

chair4b.gif
 
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