.416 owners, the ultimate big game hunting cartridge?

conor_90 said:
Why the preference for 416 (rigby/ruger) shooting 400 grains at ~2400 vs 458 win shooting 400 grains at ~ 2470. Or 416 rem getting similar results with 400s

Are people shooting 350’s?

Just seems like 458 win might be preferable; heavier bullets if needed and similar or slightly faster performance than the rem or rigby in a short action with cheaper brass
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This is where I'm landing after a lot of reading.

IMO with Barnes TSX 350 or 400 grains that wouldn't lose mass anyway, or 400 to 450 grain Swift A-frames, along with modern powders, all represent a paradigm shift that benefits the .458 WM to the point where there really isn't any need for a Lott or even loading to the longer throat of the .458 WM in some rifles (apparently you can replace bolt stop, ejector, and magazine walls with .375 H&H length parts, and load the .458 WM a bit longer.).

Choose a lighter modern bullet and lose nothing in the way of penetration, but gain a lot via lower recoil, flatter shooting and more space for powder. All in a shorter standard length action.

Seems like the .458 WM should have been loaded with 400 to 450 grain solids and softs right from the start, so it would be more like the .450 NE.
 
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I’d posit the .458 Win is still too slow, whilst interesting. From what I noticed in seeing a good deal of kills, is speed matters. Doesn’t have to be weatherby / extreme, but it really ought to be able to make 2500fps+ comfortably at the muzzle. And ideally, a little more.

The .458 Lott remains as relevant as ever in my eyes, and the .458 Win at 300 or 350grs I can get with for certain applications. Beyond that weight it’s really a Lott job. Or, a .375 at 300grs… that will comfortably make the .458 Win look average, especially as range increases slightly.

For a time I debated a .458 Win stainless grizzly guiding rifle, kept at 8lbs and short as the .458 doesn’t need much of a barrel. It would have been 300gr bullets in it. But I realized it offered little over my stainless .375 H&H… In fact it very well could have been a step backwards, so I shelved it along with the other winter boredom ideas.
 
Ardent said:
And to fit the .416 Rigby in the 98, or .375 H&H for that matter, you have to hollow out the backing of the bottom locking lug substantially to make the feed ramp.
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This is in a standard Mauser action? Or is it also true of the magnum length commercial actions? Anyone have a picture of this modification?

Not a judgement call on the 416 or 458 in terms of efficacy just an observation on the speeds and bullet range. 2.5 inch magnums seem to excel at covering a broad range of bullet weights and not doing any “great” but all well enough. 338 and 7mm coming to mind

I had a stainless 458 ruger m77 contour jury barrel made to finish at 20 inches and a stainless m77 mk ii 338 ready to pair up then covid hit and I sold it all, c’est la vie.

There must be a 350-400 grain bullet mean for the 450 Marlin/ 45-70 that can handle the juice and expand without blowing up on elk, grizzly, bison etc. I still have a dream
 
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conor_90 said:
This is in a standard Mauser action? Or is it also true of the magnum length commercial actions? Anyone have a picture of this modification?

Not a judgement call on the 416 or 458 in terms of efficacy just an observation on the speeds and bullet range. 2.5 inch magnums seem to excel at covering a broad range of bullet weights and not doing any “great” but all well enough. 338 and 7mm coming to mind

I had a stainless 458 ruger m77 contour jury barrel made to finish at 20 inches and a stainless m77 mk ii 338 ready to pair up then covid hit and I sold it all, c’est la vie.

There must be a 350-400 grain bullet mean for the 450 Marlin/ 45-70 that can handle the juice and expand without blowing up on elk, grizzly, bison etc. I still have a dream
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Yep, standard Mauser 98, .30-06 length. Search up the Selby .416. There’s really nothing to see as it just looks like a feed ramp, except to note the feed ramp has to be cut in to increase the magazine length, weakening the lower lug’s support substantially. It hasn’t appeared to matter as Selby literally shot the bore out of his .416.
 
What is meant by locking lug “backing”? Is the lug on the bolt itself being modified or is the forward position of the feed ramp impinging on the lug recess?

Did rigby use oberndorf magnum actions and standard length actions for their 375’s and 416’s? Was using standard actions for 375/404/416 etc common?
 
conor_90 said:
What is meant by locking lug “backing”? Is the lug on the bolt itself being modified or is the forward position of the feed ramp impinging on the lug recess?

Did rigby use oberndorf magnum actions and standard length actions for their 375’s and 416’s? Was using standard actions for 375/404/416 etc common?
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The feed ramp forms the lower locking lug surface. Cutting away some of the feed ramp to accommodate longer cartridges potentially weakens the action, though it was a fairly common practice among English gunmakers.

Pre-war, Rigby .416's and .350's would have been built on commercial Magnum actions. After WWII the source for those actions was gone, so Rigby's modified standard length actions. Selby's rifle is not a one-off. There are a couple of others that I know of built the same way.

Holland & Holland modified standard actions for their .375 and .30 Super ( they used magnum actions occasionally too), Jeffery built some .404's and .333's that way, but the really big cartridges, .416, .505 and ..500 Jeffery were all built on magnum actions until WWII.

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Or just buy a properly designed & built DGR? I wouldn't rely on a saturday night special up against something that could ruin my day. Firearms industry doesn't have design or manufacturing standards so anything goes you have to rely on reputable builders & reliable designs if self preservation means anything.
 
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conor_90 said:
What rifles was the 416 chambered in that could not handle high pressure?

I was under the impression that the magazine rifle big bore cartridges had low pressure limits because that is what a case jammed full of cordite produced not because of limitations of Mauser actions
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Part of the issue was the relief of the feed ramp and support under same when chambering in the Mauser 98 (non-magnum). Another part of the issue was the pressure sensitivity of cordite. Take a safe cordite load from dreary old England and roast it in the African sun and the pressure would be quite a bit higher. So it's not exactly that the rifles couldn't handle the pressure, it's that they couldn't handle the increased pressure. These days you can load to max pressure at home in Grande Prairie in October and take it to Zimbabwe the next week and not see a significant increase in pressure, thanks to the modern formulation of H4831SC (my favourite, btu there are many others that work as well).
 
4fifty8 said:
Or just buy a properly designed & built DGR? I wouldn't rely on a saturday night special up against something that could ruin my day. Firearms industry doesn't have design or manufacturing standards so anything goes you have to rely on reputable builders & reliable designs if self preservation means anything.
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Indeed Rigby is quite well known for their shade tree work, especially in safari rifles. :d
 
Ardent said:
I’d posit the .458 Win is still too slow, whilst interesting. From what I noticed in seeing a good deal of kills, is speed matters. Doesn’t have to be weatherby / extreme, but it really ought to be able to make 2500fps+ comfortably at the muzzle. And ideally, a little more.

The .458 Lott remains as relevant as ever in my eyes, and the .458 Win at 300 or 350grs I can get with for certain applications. Beyond that weight it’s really a Lott job. Or, a .375 at 300grs… that will comfortably make the .458 Win look average, especially as range increases slightly.

For a time I debated a .458 Win stainless grizzly guiding rifle, kept at 8lbs and short as the .458 doesn’t need much of a barrel. It would have been 300gr bullets in it. But I realized it offered little over my stainless .375 H&H… In fact it very well could have been a step backwards, so I shelved it along with the other winter boredom ideas.
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That's where I'm at: looking at using my Model 70 .458WM as a bear buster with 350 grain TSX bullets. I want the least recoil that will still drop a barrenlander at five feet. With a McMillan and an aluminum floor plate I could get the weight down to about 8.5 pounds I think. But I also have a .375H&H that could do the same job with the 270 TSX and less recoil. Or a .30-06/.308 with 180 grain bullets like everyone else uses up there.

From many readings elsewhere of well-informed posts by .458 aficionados, there isn't any trouble getting 500 grain lead core bullets to 2200 fps anymore. 2500 fps is another story, even with the Lott. SAAMI throats are long in the Win Mag and short in the Lott, and I'm reading that you can load a 500 grain bullet to the same length as the Lott with those three changes to the Model 70 I wrote above. The same authors state that loading long now is completely unnecessary, as the factory and reloads are sufficient for dropping elephants without further recoil. They state that .375H&H solids are noticeably less effective than 458WM solids, and that any expanding bullets likely won't penetrate far enough on body shots.

None of that matters for buffalo and bears though.
 
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Case sizes .416 Wby vs .416 Rigby. Nosler lists .416 Wby case volume 114.5gr H2O, .416 Rigby 106gr H2O. Nosler measures case volume at neck base? Case volumes vary depending on source & mfg.

If I load 400gr PT -

.416 Rigby: 101gr Re19 @ 2475 fps mv max (24" barrel) https://www.nosler.com/416-rigby

.416 Wby: 115gr Re19 @ 2696 fps mv max (26" barrel) https://www.nosler.com/416-weatherby-magnum

Both loads compressed assume .416 Rigby held to 52,000 psi (ANSI) or 47,137 psi (CIP)? Assume .416 Wby held to 65,000 psi (ANSI).

HlGNvjd.jpg
 
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Ardent said:
Yep, standard Mauser 98, .30-06 length. Search up the Selby .416. There’s really nothing to see as it just looks like a feed ramp, except to note the feed ramp has to be cut in to increase the magazine length, weakening the lower lug’s support substantially. It hasn’t appeared to matter as Selby literally shot the bore out of his .416.
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Is that a function of rounds down the bore or the components used in the ammunition? I also asked a gun writer about this rebarrel job. I’ve seen before and after photos of this rifle and the exterior of the barrel, including wear, does not appear to have changed any. He got back to me and agreed with the observation. He was going to get back to me on what he found out, and never did.
 
4fifty8 said:
Or just buy a properly designed & built DGR? I wouldn't rely on a saturday night special up against something that could ruin my day. Firearms industry doesn't have design or manufacturing standards so anything goes you have to rely on reputable builders & reliable designs if self preservation means anything.
Click to expand...

I spoke with D’Arcy Echols about that. He has had that particular rifle in his shop. He had had enquires about building a copy on that same action. He advised that there was no need to do such a stupid thing. And Selby building from scratch wouldn’t do it either.
 
pathfinder76 said:
Is that a function of rounds down the bore or the components used in the ammunition? I also asked a gun writer about this rebarrel job. I’ve seen before and after photos of this rifle and the exterior of the barrel, including wear, does not appear to have changed any. He got back to me and agreed with the observation. He was going to get back to me on what he found out, and never did.
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One usually wears a barrel from the inside out, as opposed from the opposite direction, eh Chuck? So not really sure why all of the aha!!! moments of discovery with regards to the appearance of the rifle, or the mechanics of how the barrel was worn out? Especially since no claim was made as such... and in the end, what would it really matter? The barrel was worn out from use either way, no doubt, was it not? The writer in question probably never got back to you, as, well... why would he, or anyone else for that matter?

R.
 
pathfinder76 said:
I spoke with D’Arcy Echols about that. He has had that particular rifle in his shop. He had had enquires about building a copy on that same action. He advised that there was no need to do such a stupid thing. And Selby building from scratch wouldn’t do it either.
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That's great.

R.
 
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