Para Ordnance New Rifle

capp325

I'll be talking to Para tomorrow about another matter will ask about the factory.

As to pricing Para sells it's guns to US and Cdn distributers at the same price. You pay what the dealers want to sell the gun for. Work on it and you will get it eventually. Think in terms of a dealer selling twenty guns a month in Canada vs a dealer in the US selling 200 guns a month. Now think of mark-up, do the math on how much money you think there is in a gun and then apply it to what you think a Canadian retailer's fixed costs are vs their US counterpart and you will be close to your answer. You might also take a look in Vancouver or any major city in Canada and count the number of stores selling handgun, then get hold of the Seattle phone book and count the dealers in that smaller US city. Then think of competition and handgun possession per population. All at that point should be clear. I would venture a guess that Kesselrings south of Vancouver sells more handguns in a month then are sold in Vancouver in a year.

Questar was importing Glocks from their US dealer, charging a fee, and still selling for a lower price than Glock dealers in Canada were. Kind of answers your question I think.

Once Para sells their guns to the distributer the market place takes over.

Take Care

Bob
 
There is a thread going on the 1911org forum and a gentleman there says the ZM Ar runs with a piston with the recoil spring wrapped around it. The Para rifle is an exact duplicate of the ZM gun. Frnakly, I think is just been rebranded by Para. Lower is the same as a regular AR. If you want more info phone Para. I will tomorrow in any event.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Thanks for the clarification. From your last comentI assume you shot the gun and know the spring will be effected by the heat thus making the gun inoperable. Clever guys at Para, producing a gun that will malfuction when you shoot it. Maybe the intend to sell it to the Taliban.

Take Care

Bob
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You're a ####head, Bob. Always have been.
 
The original ZM is actually made by Yankee Hill.

Honestly, for that price - go get a noveske, SIG 556 or something else.
 
Deckard

No I will stick around and listen to all the experts tell me about their trip to the Shot Show. I posted this picture because I thought it might interest those in the Black rifle crowd. Out of the gate we got guys claiming BS to a system they had wrong and others ditzing Para for god knows what reason. I think an AR upper with a piston system has some merit. The system seems to work in the AK quite well and others.

If you get off me calling the gas tube a pipe so be it. Just don't come out with your "BS" comment when you don't even know the system the gun uses. (You are pardend a tad because it is a little unclear to me as well other than I believe it now to be a piston driven upper). Why not just say, "Hey neat another company competing for my gun dollar" and find out more about the gun.

I don't own an AR and likely may never but I do know business and no sucessful business with Para's reputation is going to sign onto a product that hasn't been tested and proven to work.

Think what you want about their pistols and bemoan the retail price of them if you will but they have carved out a market in the 1911 field and done it with some inovative product enhancements ie double stack 1911, ramped barrels in the 1911 and their PXT extractor. All that against formidable odds. Just the fact it is a Canadian company is a hurdle in itself in some parts of the US. Hell their guns are no better or worse than any other manufacturers at their price point. To say otherwise is is delusional in the extreme.

Try pumping 1,000 rounds out of a Glock in 10 minutes 44 seconds then tell me about reliability - Para did with a box stock gun, the Kimber lovers out there ought to give the record a go. I would suggest Glock but at over 500 dgrees (Temp of the barrel at the end, the Glock may have wilted.

They also sell their guns virtually at cost to members of the our armed forces as well as the US. Like to hear from our Army boys how many times they have been approached by Kimber with an offer like Para has. Didn't see Springfield, STI or Kimber handing out a pistol to the Queens Medal winner in Ottawa last year - but I did see Para present one to BMW of this forum.

Sorry Deckard if all this is rather harsh but I wonder sometimes if some on this forum have any business savy at all. Send me a PM and let me know what the thingy that carries the gas back to the bolt is called. I might even promise to buy an AR in the next year - maybe one of these Para's....if they work.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
As to pricing Para sells it's guns to US and Cdn distributers at the same price.
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And that price is what exactly? Once again, I ask if you can provide any numbers to substantiate your claim. Also, who is the Canadian distributor for Para Ordnance? I was under the impression that Para sold directly to dealers. Then again, you seem to use the words "dealer" and "distributor" interchangeably, so I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.

Canuck44 said:
You pay what the dealers want to sell the gun for. Work on it and you will get it eventually. Think in terms of a dealer selling twenty guns a month in Canada vs a dealer in the US selling 200 guns a month.
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Your comparison is a bit simplistic. Yes, the Canadian firearms market is much smaller but Canada also has a lot fewer gun dealers than the U.S. Large Canadian retailers like Wolverine Supplies, TSE and Marstar move quite a bit of volume.

Canuck44 said:
Questar was importing Glocks from their US dealer, charging a fee, and still selling for a lower price than Glock dealers in Canada were. Kind of answers your question I think.
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Funny that you mention Questar and Glock. Questar made it VERY clear that the price disparity had nothing to do with Canadian dealers and was instead a deliberate price discrimination strategy on Glock's part.
 
Deckard said:
The prices blow and I guess we should feel privileged that they make a Commander sized unit. How about a Hawg with longer barrel. Frig, Glock subcompacts can be had with long barrels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Not from Glock they can't, but don't let the facts ruin a perfectly good rant;)
 
Canuck44 said:
That comment is about as intelligent as your first. At least you are consistent.

Take Care

Bob
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OK, #### head. Try to keep up:

The para guy AT SHOT SHOW informed me that I was correct, it is not a piston upper, it is direct impingement.

As far as the effect of elevated temperature on the properties of heat treated steels... including spring steel... I'll put my experience in mechanical engineering in the turbine engine business up against your skill with a spatula, or possibly shovel, OK?

In fact, when I told the engineering manager (also at SHOT) from a fairly major AR manufacturing outfit about the new Para offering, and the "It runs cool!" blarney, he quipped: "Yeah, the spring keeps it cool!", and we had a good chuckle.

Para. Gah.
 
ZM is not piston, this is a rebranded ZM so it too is not a piston.
It is just a relocated spring.
Anybody who knows metal will tell you if you ask them how can a spring loose its "springyness" and they will tell you heat. Wrapping the spring around a gas tube which can get red hot can affect the spring, but in all likeliness nobody in Canada who follows mag laws has ever seen a red has tube.

As for para pistol pricing, find me one dealer who's prices are significantly different from other dealers and I will believe you.
 
HeVGunner said:
Not from Glock they can't, but don't let the facts ruin a perfectly good rant;)
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Yes, not from Glock wiseass, but it is true that it takes great effort to drop in a longer barrel. Para could make an effort - any effort - and they would sell. Selling things is should be the aim of a business. Ask Canuck44.


The rest of you lack imagination. Why would we wish for a subcompact Para when a Commander would do?
 
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Deckard

Para makes the Tac Five with the small grip and a five inch barrel using their LDA format. Works in IDPA SSP but I{SC doesn't allow it in Production. If there was a substantial market in Canada for such a gun I am sure Para would fill it. Given we can play with our hand toys at the range not sure what the appeal would be for a gun much smaller.

Cap325 - You go round and round for what purpose. Substitute Norinco for Para and your posts are the same. If you are that curious about Para pricing, form a company, buy a business license and contact the distributer.

Take Care

Bob
 
I just got off the phone with Para. The rifle is going to be manufactured by Para USA in the U.S. NOT in Canada. It is the ZM designed rifle and details or agreements for the rights have not all been finalized. The rifle will be in the marketplace by the summer of 2008. It will be made in a Para plant with Para parts. It will be made available in Canada. Pricing has not been set for the gun but it will likely be around $1,250 for the base model to $2,800+ for a decked out gun. The latter would contain options not available to the civilian market in Canada I would assume.

The operating system is a cross between a piston driven and the original Stoner design. The Recoil spring is contained in a separate rod with the gas tube (Deckard come up with the name for it) below the spring. Heat is not an issue I am told. While it is expected there will some civilian sales the principle market for the gun I would guess is the military/para military market.

I am sure there will be a lot of conjecture and views expressed by the experts out there on why the gun either will or won't work etc. The gun is coming, it will sell, Para obviously thinks there is a market and I suspect there is. Testing of the gun at Ft. Benning, G.A. has been completed and none of the issues expressed so far in this thread have been observed.

For a number of personal reasons I have not entered the Black Rifle market but with three Gun shoots coming to the club this may be the rifle I choose.

Might I suggest before we all go out and crunch on Para that we at least wait until the gun is in the market, with pricing established and then have at it. Personally I am happy to see Para growing and expanding their product line. Given the gun friendly province they operate out of, the National Political scene as it relates to guns and gun ownership I remain surprised they continue to manufacture their pistols here.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Cap325 - You go round and round for what purpose. Substitute Norinco for Para and your posts are the same. If you are that curious about Para pricing, form a company, buy a business license and contact the distributer.
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I take this to mean you have no idea what Para's actual dealer price is.
 
capp325

Nope! It means I'm not going to tell you because it is none of your business that is what it means. If you know anything about pricing you should be able to work it out for yourself. As an aside Para doesn't sell to dealers the company sells to a retail distributer and it is from that source Para receives payment. You seem to struggle with that concept. What the dealer chooses to mark up their product from the distributer is their business and their decision alone.

Take Care

Bob
 
capp325 said:
Also, who is the Canadian distributor for Para Ordnance? I was under the impression that Para sold directly to dealers. .
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North Sylva or North Saliva as many call them. One upon a time it used to be Rob & Leon of USSR and all was sweetness and light but that was all brought to an end courtesy of th OPP and a large dose of incompetence.

Because of the enlightened attitude that Bantario has, Para cannot even accept their own product for repairs unless it goes through North Sylva. I live 40 minutes away from the factory but I have to ship to North Sylva which is further away (not much, only North York but the principle is still the same).
 
tenexx said:
North Sylva or North Saliva as many call them. One upon a time it used to be Rob & Leon of USSR and all was sweetness and light but that was all brought to an end courtesy of th OPP and a large dose of incompetence.

Because of the enlightened attitude that Bantario has, Para cannot even accept their own product for repairs unless it goes through North Sylva. I live 40 minutes away from the factory but I have to ship to North Sylva which is further away (not much, only North York but the principle is still the same).
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Backup the original distributor for Para was Ontario Sporting Supplies and that was when Para was in its infancy, then some behind the door politcs occured between Ontario & USSR - this opened the market for USSR, which meant we had two distributors for the product line, until the robbery/murder at Ontario Sporting Supplies.

gadget
 
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