Merits of 7mm Rem Mag Vs 338 Win Mag for long range Elk/Moose/Bear cartridge?

[Joel]

Over understanding stuff, is useless...
Do you really think, at the distances you shoot at, knowing the SD of bullet pulled from a dead critter is useful information? Or at any distance, for that matter?

R.

Some of us like knowing a lot about the things we are passionate about.

Do you NEED to? Well, I can't really imagine going through life knowing only what I NEED to about anything. Sounds like willful ignorance.

if anyone wants to though, its THEIR life.

 

[blakeyboy]

Expand your thinking

Have you compared velocities of cartridges before? We can all recite the standard barrel length. Ever compared drops? We now use bc to tells us what velocities and wind drifts we will compared to other options. Standardized data points. I’m sure it wasn’t that long ago people would tell others about in flight ballistics when they nerded out with the numbers that guys would say you’re over thinking it...just throw a 180 out of a 30 cal and you’re good. Cripes how many of us have our own chronographs now? How many now have beyond Mpbr elevation solutions now?

Hundredth monkey effect has happened with inflight ballistics lol. We’re barely at the starting line with terminal ballistics, proof is in the discussions lol.

Try to imagine a standardized set of testing and data points that would let you compare terminal the same way. It’s being able to see all the options compared to each other to match and or exceed the known formulas. Eventually we will get to the hundredth monkey on this too.

First guy through the wall always gets bloody though.

 

[pathfinder76]

Gravity is constant. Bullet performance and placement never are.

 

[Rman]

Sounds like willful ignorance to pursue knowledge that has little to no practical application for the task at hand. That being said, it is your time and effort to spend, so fill your boots.

The only issue then becomes to need or requirement to convince others that it is somehow practical or useful, when it certainly is not.

R.

 

[Joel]

Sounds like willful ignorance to pursue knowledge that has little to no practical application for the task at hand. That being said, it is your time and effort to spend, so fill your boots.

The only issue then becomes to need or requirement to convince others that it is somehow practical or useful, when it certainly is not.

R.

Then what was the point of ever posting anything besides "grab any hunting bullet and go!"

 

[dan belisle]

Yeah, thoroughly understanding stuff sucks. But, that IS true

BTW, Rman, sorry I never got back to you on the McM stock. Ended up not building on a long action Rem 700 after all...but man I can't believe that hasn't sold yet. Its a smoking deal.

I doubt very much we will ever "thoroughly understand" downrange ballistics on game. Makes for interesting table talk though. - dan

 

[blakeyboy]

@pathfinder Agree with most of your points as usual. Do you agree that terminal ballistics is a subjective mess? What takes up the most bandwidth on hunt/gun forums?

Bullet performance isn’t constant because we shoot variable sd bullets and we don’t measure the variable part. Therefore there’s no standards yet for which to compare all our choices against each other. We have a ways to go. We can make terminal ballistics just as objective as inflight. I predict that is the future direction all this stuff will go. First monkey gets it started, takes awhile to get to the hundredth monkey though.

 

[blakeyboy]

I dought very much we will ever "thoroughly understand" downrange ballistics on game. Makes for interesting table talk though. - dan

Agreed. There was some work done end of last century early this one but it was all studying the wounds. Temporary stretch and permanent wound cavity etc. Which I’m sure is still useful in understanding terminal ballistics further but why was the bullet never looked at? The finished bullet holds the most answers.

 

[Rman]

Then what was the point of ever posting anything besides "grab any hunting bullet and go!"

You're a smart feller... Knowing the SD of a spent bullet pulled from a dead critter is useful how? Where is the scientific method? The application of the data is skewed because there are not enough constants involved. This would be a different conversation, to point, if it were about weight retention, and impact velocities.
In order for the data to be useful, the media would have to be consistent, and controlled. It most certainly isn't.
To go a step further... for your hunting, and most others... Grab any damn bullet and go, will work just fine, as long as said bullet is put in the right place.

R.

 

[Rman]

@pathfinder Agree with most of your points as usual. Do you agree that terminal ballistics is a subjective mess? What takes up the most bandwidth on hunt/gun forums?

Bullet performance isn’t constant because we shoot variable sd bullets and we don’t measure the variable part. Therefore there’s no standards yet for which to compare all our choices against each other. We have a ways to go. We can make terminal ballistics just as objective as inflight. I predict that is the future direction all this stuff will go. First monkey gets it started, takes awhile to get to the hundredth monkey though.

Variable SD bullets, now? Dude... just stop. In order for any of your spew to be valid, the media has to be constant. Get off the hunting forum, and start shooting gel...exclusively.

R.

 

[Joel]

I dought very much we will ever "thoroughly understand" downrange ballistics on game. Makes for interesting table talk though. - dan

Well, some people sure don't like trying to lol

 

[blakeyboy]

Sounds like willful ignorance to pursue knowledge that has little to no practical application for the task at hand. That being said, it is your time and effort to spend, so fill your boots.

R.

Coming from the guy who adjusts his zero ever ten steps throughout the day lol.

So it was just pure fluke that I downsized to a cartridge only needing 30 grains of powder to push a 123 gr .252 sd bullet of appropriate construction for 2400-1800 fps impacts in the ranges I will hunt and am seeing shorter overall recoveries and more drt’s than when I was pushing the usual long action stuff over 50 grains of powder? I just got lucky eh?

Flawed logic again, with that we’d still be getting around by horse and might have a 30-30.

 

[Joel]

You're a smart feller... Knowing the SD of a spent bullet pulled from a dead critter is useful how? Where is the scientific method? The application of the data is skewed because there are not enough constants involved. This would be a different conversation, to point, if it were about weight retention, and impact velocities.
In order for the data to be useful, the media would have to be consistent, and controlled. It most certainly isn't.
To go a step further... for your hunting, and most others... Grab any damn bullet and go, will work just fine, as long as said bullet is put in the right place.

R.

Why thank you! And likewise.

I think its relevant in that tougher bullets that lose less weight and deform less (not a large sectional density change) are going to penetrate deeper, give me more insurance on bigger/tougher animals/angles less optimal than a broadside one.

Its also relevant for me to know that bullets that open faster, deform more are quicker killers in general, but their ability to break down bigger, tougher animals is limited, because their penetration is rather lacking. So I should really wait for ideal placement before I chance a shot with them on a bigger tougher critter.

'bout it. What I care about beyond that is which one is in my chamber depending on what I am doing. I don't want an A-Frame while out hunting deer and I don't want a lightly constructed, fast expanding bullet unless I am real sure I can put a shot pretty much perfectly onto Bullwinkle.

Could always compromise and go with something that offers the best of both worlds, like a Partition, Terminal Ascent, Trophy Bonded Tip etc. Made to do both.

Definitely not saying that whatever has worked for a guy is gonna keep workin for a guy and that buying a box of Core Lokt or Federal Blue Box ain't a totally satisfactory thing 99% of the time lol. It bores me, but that doesn't stop it from working

That's what it means to me. The rest is just fun.

 

[Rman]

Coming from the guy who adjusts his zero ever ten steps throughout the day lol.

So it was just pure fluke that I downsized to a cartridge only needing 30 grains of powder to push a 123 gr .252 sd bullet of appropriate construction for 2400-1800 fps impacts in the ranges I will hunt and am seeing shorter overall recoveries and more drt’s than when I was pushing the usual long action stuff over 50 grains of powder? I just got lucky eh?

Flawed logic again, with that we’d still be getting around by horse and might have a 30-30.

You haven't a clue about how a zero gets adjusted, and that's the whole point. You want everyone else to accept your spew, and it has nothing behind it, except your opinion...
The logic and fact is, there isn't anything you're doing with whatever cartridge you think you discovered, that couldn't be done with a 30-30. Especially at the distances you speak about.
Anyone that has actually done it, sees and knows this.

R.

 

[blakeyboy]

Variable SD bullets, now? Dude... just stop. In order for any of your spew to be valid, the media has to be constant. Get off the hunting forum, and start shooting gel...exclusively.

R.

And you’re speed reading again. If you go back you’ll see that’s exactly what I’m saying. We don’t have the standardized testing and data points yet. You’re witnessing the first guy through the wall here, we always get bloody. I’ve been yapping about this for years. Some people if it’s too much to handle they’d just rather be dismissive, deflect, and or attack the messenger. You’re clearly not understanding it. Sometimes you have to read slower, and or, a few times.

 

[blakeyboy]

You haven't a clue about how a zero gets adjusted, and that's the whole point. You want everyone else to accept your spew, and it has nothing behind it, except your opinion...
The logic and fact is, there isn't anything you're doing with whatever cartridge you think you discovered, that couldn't be done with a 30-30. Especially at the distances you speak about.
Anyone that has actually done it, sees and knows this.

R.

The zero comment was a joke, relax big guy, you were supposed to laugh at that caricature of you. I know you’re not adjusting every 10 steps. Omfg I’m dying lol. Now I’LL be envisioning you like Elmer Fudd prancing through the bush with your hand on the dial adjusting as you go while asking where the wascally wabbits are.

 

[Joel]

Blakeyboy is one of those guys who is off-putting at first, but once I realized that he just calls for a bit of thick skin, is quite likeable lol. Honestly thought he was talking out of his arse on the 6.5 Grendel til he started posting pictures and explanations of what he does. And with other rifles too! Just gotta give him a chance haha.

 

[Rman]

And you’re speed reading again. If you go back you’ll see that’s exactly what I’m saying. We don’t have the standardized testing and data points yet. You’re witnessing the first guy through the wall here, we always get bloody. I’ve been yapping about this for years. Some people if it’s too much to handle they’d just rather be dismissive, deflect, and or attack the messenger. You’re clearly not understanding it. Sometimes you have to read slower, and or, a few times.

The standardized testing and data points, come from ballistic gel. A constant. You should really check it out. We are all witnessing something, that's for sure. Yapping is very accurate, except with no science behind it.

R.

 

[Rman]

The zero comment was a joke, relax big guy, you were supposed to laugh at that caricature of you. I know you’re not adjusting every 10 steps. Omfg I’m dying lol. Now I’LL be envisioning you like Elmer Fudd prancing through the bush with your hand on the dial adjusting as you go while asking where the wascally wabbits are.

It wasn't a joke...You really don't know, and that is another fact. You need to get out Mom's basement, and go shoot gel with your one rifle. It's a much better fit for your "talents"

R.

 

[blakeyboy]

The problem is, none of them end up the same. Case in point. I have a fairly large collection of recovered bullets actually. Here are just the TSX/TTSX/LRX portion of that collection. Again, gathering this data is anecdotal. You can use it but let’s make sure we understand that we don’t have anything that is definitive on this.

Totally agree and that’s exactly what I’m saying. We have rules of thumbs, starting guidelines, rudimentary level and almost entirely subjective from there. Through our experiences we gain more subjective understandings and can feel what works as we go and shoot more things while paying attention when the knife comes out.

A manufacturer willing to get bloody will have to be the first to develop out the right standard of testing and which data points to use. Happy to go work for hornady or whoever will take it on. Gonna need a minute and a lot of gel to figure out what’s the best impact velocity and gel type to show differences, maybe need two impact velocity points to fully show rate of expected change etc. Not saying easy to do, but it’s a door we haven’t opened yet and needs opening. The finished bullet holds the most answers and data points, we just aren’t studying it yet and so we aren’t able to use anything commercially to help shorten these discussions or make our choices based off better info. Heck who’s to say rate of spin at impact won’t be a factor in what happens internally? Once the part gets started numbers or factors I haven’t thought of yet may be discovered along the way?

In the meantime we just go haywire with subjective this and that but we can still visualize perceived outcomes and make our own internal predictions of various bullets at various velocities with the basic but of info we do have to work with.