Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun

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antiqueguy said:
The thing is you came here and asked for advice but have basically went off in anyone who didn’t follow your idea.

I have owned a couple Damascus shotguns that I considered worthy of shooting. far too many are pitted and most likely unsafe even the smallest pit could be a hidden void in a weld. Sometimes you can’t even see rust in the barrels it’s packed in between welds and can cause a failure. These guns not only seen black powder and its early substitutes(bulk semi smokeless much like pyrodex) they also seen corrosive primers.

For those that do not know how Demarcus barrels were made they took thin strips of iron and steel welded together in a bar(forge welded) these were twisted and then wrapped around a mandrel and the tube was then forge welded together vertically. Not something I’d like to play games with.
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I try'd multiple time to keep it civil until people began belittling others(see my earlier comments as it started to derail) then i reacted with the same, thankfully it seems everyone's settle down and we can continue the debate with polite discourse. Thank you for your input on damascus barrels
 
tiriaq said:
Having a crack detecting kit on hand might be a good idea. Might be possible to detect incipient failure. Test before, during and after.
Used the process to check a centerfire rifle bolt that had a mark at the root of a locking lug that looked as if it could be a crack. It wasn't. But the test eliminated guesswork.
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Do you know the maker of the kit off hand? Or does anyone have one they've used in the past with success on firearms? Thanks again
 
The one I used was from the aircraft maintenance industry. I forget the brand.
Essentially all barrels were welded until the mid-19th century. Whitworth was a pioneer. By welded I mean twist, damascus, longitudinal seam, laminated. There were many variations. It was easier to weld a tube than to drill from solid. Perhaps the sporting rifles supplied in unfinished state to the trade by Remington were bored from solid by the 1840s or 50s.
The first US service arm with a bored from solid barrel was the Remington 1863; the first British was the Mk. III Snider. All earlier US and British service arms had welded barrels.
Belgian Damascus barrels were made into the 1920s, perhaps later. American made shotguns with welded barrels invariably used barrels sourced in Belgium.
Do a search for Damascus barrel making on YouTube. You will find a B&W film recorded in Belgium in 1919 showing barrel makers producing a 3 stripe damascus barrel. From the musee de la vie Wallon. Different damascus barrels are shown at the end of the film. One is an "etoile" pattern, I think another is a "Bernard" and the last is the "Zenobe Gramme" barrel. The Zenobe Gramme barrel has the name Zenobe Gramme worked into the matrix of the ribbons. The letters are pale, so they would be steel, welded into the iron strips. There is a similar barrel with "Prince Albert" in the weld pattern and a pair with "Remington". Those are on a a high grade Model 1894 shotgun. My brother has seen the Gramme and Albert barrels in the museum and discussed them with the curator. The letters are not a surface applique. They are welded into the matrix. The museum cut a slice off one of the barrels and etched it for microscopic examination.
 
Rebelson said:
Thank you, do you happen to know the year range of the overlapping manufacture of Damascus and fluid steel, might be easier to find evidence with the DOM
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Show me a picture of the undersides of the barrels..
There are 2 types of underlever guns...the lefaucheux style which the forend is rotated to break the gun...and theres a jones underlever style, the lefaucheux guns started as pinfires in the 1840s/50s
Then centerfire guns came about in the late 1860s onwards... The belgian lefaucheux action is not strong, the action looks like a strap hinge when opened. ( husqvarna) copied those actions in the 1920s and improved metallurgy in action and barrels to shoot smokeless loads... The jones underlever gun utilized a rotating T lock by swinging a lever situated under the trigger guard...commonly used on english guns was much stronger and was used on some hefty big bore rifles as well... Damascus was phased out in the early to mid 1910's, by 1920 forged barrels
Came into play...i can date most guns as long as i have photos of the proof marks under the barrels
There were companies like WW greener which had
Their own fluid type barrels before 1900.only on high grade guns... But for the most part...turn of the century saw differences in materials as ammunition
Was being made more powerful and guns were beefed up to shoot it
 
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What are the groups thoughts on using a hand rolled paper shot cup over a fibre wad? similar in principle to paper patching pure lead rifle projectiles to avoid barrel contact, I'm nearly certain if it can take 20 shells at 50% overpressure from a vice without damage the idea is feasible. As long as the steel doesn't contact the bore at all and I use loads of 70-80 grains after the 130gn proofing run. If the steel doesn't scar the bore how is it any different on the 200th shot at a lower pressure. If Damascus guns that have been reproofed blew up, the proof houses would have alot of angry customers and it would be widely known. My only real concern is the needed velocity to ethically take game and keeping it for touching the bore. Any ideas?
 
A 75gr charge of FF pyrodex in my belgian 16g with 1oz of lead..yields 1000fps from 30" barrels
Very slow...but lead carries energy steel needs speed to kill...the speed youd get...the steel would not humanly kill a bird beyond 15 yards also...takes 2 shot sizes larger in steel to equal lead performance
So a #6 lead youd use a #3 steel.. Larger pellets means less pellet count and smaller shot weight...
Steel loses power and speed FAST ..thats why steel
Loads are upwards of 1400fps or higher..ive loaded
3" magnums to 1700fps..in 12g...
20 shots at over pressure ....then 21st one blows it
The steel gets stressed to a breaking point..its simply not designed for it...paper shotcup wouldnt hold up..it would disintegrate
 
A rolled paper shot cup is essentially a paper cartridge. Used them regularly in a ML shotgun.
I very much doubt that rolled paper would be strong enough to keep iron shot separated from the barrel. Those heavy plastic shot cups are used with iron shot because they have the strength to keep the shot and barrel from making contact.
If an iron pellet gets between the shot cup and the cartridge wall by accident when the cartridge is being loaded, the barrel will be scored.
 
Rebelson said:
the SxS will be straped down in a gun vice and test fired with atleast 15-20 shells, ill even double down... i just did a basic re proof of this SxS today 5 shells per barrel loaded with 130 grains of 2f Schuetzen from a shot measure scoop and used it for the shot aswell for overpressure sqaure loads in a 16ga. The SxS pased with flying colours from the vice, ill do the same with BB steel for the experiment (130grn sqaure loads). After that I will check the bore for visible damage ie scratches and bugles. After that I will take the OD bore measurements I've already taken every 2 inchs from chamber to crown and compare them to SxS After the test firing, then ill ring the barrels. With no damage I'll call it a successful experiment and ill confidently shoulder it with 70-80 grn sqaure loads, if it blows apart in the gun vice we learn. My face won't be near this if the gun receives any damage. What do you have against experiments in a controlled environment on a range on my property? I'm not endangering anyone and it will be rope fired from 20ft away behind a trucks engine bay, it's a cheap Belgian and I can afford to buy another one or 4 if this one turns into Damascus confetti in the vice, plus I get one hell of a cool story and a conversation piece. If it passes I can shoot ducks and geese with a BP with super cheap steel shot at 70-80grn for next to nothing. Wouldn't you like to push the limits of an beat up antique in a vice from a string in the name of science and a fews laughs with friends before buying another one to test?
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So your loading 2.5" shell 16 gauge... With 130gr powder and the appropriate over powder and fiber cushion...then the same powder measure set to 130gr...full of shot..., i just attempted this...it would not fit in a 2.5" hull. What load method are you using? Wed like to see pictures . i load 75gr of 2f pyrodex..a nitro card...a 3/8fiber...and 1oz lead and shell is full with just enough to roll crimp... 130gr powder fills the hull near 3/4 of the way up?
 
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chasseur said:
To actually see what would be happening in this type of experiment instead of relying on the barrels to let go to prove a point you would have to X-ray the barrels after every shot to actually see if there is a change in the barrels metallurgy to prove anything worth while.Like Hunter Rod states you could shoot a gun 25 times and the 26th time blows it up but the stress in the barrel might of actually started a lot earlier.In your experiment you would never when the change actually occurred
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Chasseur 100% bud,
Anyhow..he's gonna do it anyways, it blows up or not is irrelevant.. Id advise anyone...do not try it...
 
HUNTERROD said:
So your loading 2.5" shell 16 gauge... With 130gr powder and the appropriate over powder and fiber cushion...then the same powder measure set to 130gr...full of shot..., i just attempted this...it would not fit in a 2.5" hull. What load method are you using? Wed like to see pictures . i load 75gr of 2f pyrodex..a nitro card...a 3/8fiber...and 1oz lead and shell is full with just enough to roll crimp... 130gr powder fills the hull near 3/4 of the way up?
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130g then compress the powder, then JUST an over powder and the same shot measure scoop of the same size of shot, checked on a reloading scale. I'll advise that no one trys this aswell as its an experiment. When loading your shell to make the comment did you compress the charge? Kinda hard for me to proof it already with lead if it didn't fit?
 
Now I'll look into paper patching a 20ga steel wad aswell as the straight paper patch to compare the 2. I know what you guys are saying and its been said many times, I'm just trying at this point to see if it's physically possible to do it without damage. Humour me and maybe pitch an idea for a wad system and ill try it, live alittle
 
Compressed yes the powder took up near 3/4 the hull
Did you weigh your charge of powder on a scale? Or by volumetric measure? Im using a volumetric measure for Muzzleloader? You dont measure black powder in scales.. You wont get the same weight
From volumetric measure to scale weight
 
I'll try tomorrow if I'm not swamped at work, it was measured on a reloading scale then I set the scoop to hold the powder flush, then used the scoop for the shot. I'll have to look into how to post pictures on here this site is pretty dated
 
HUNTERROD said:
Compressed yes the powder took up near 3/4 the hull
Did you weigh your charge of powder on a scale? Or by volumetric measure? Im using a volumetric measure for Muzzleloader? You dont measure black powder in scales.. You wont get the same weight
From volumetric measure to scale weight
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Real black powder such as Goex can be measured by weight subs like pyrodex are volume equivalent
 
Rebelson said:
Now I'll look into paper patching a 20ga steel wad aswell as the straight paper patch to compare the 2. I know what you guys are saying and its been said many times, I'm just trying at this point to see if it's physically possible to do it without damage. Humour me and maybe pitch an idea for a wad system and ill try it, live alittle
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Theirs 16ga wads for steel out there. Some plastic wads do melt with black powder and I can tell you that it’s not fun to clean up.
 
When your out at a rendezvous shoot...you use volumetric measures... Ive never in my life heard a person weigh powder at a range or on a wood walk
With a digital scale...to each their own..i shoot flintlock also...from a brass volumetric measure
I shoot a custom built flint trade gun 62 cal smoothbore built by david dolliver....
By the way...ALL PLASTIC WADS MELT with BP..
The heat deforms and blows by the cushion wads.
The mixture of fiber wads and melted plastic..cools...dries on barrel...forms layer every shot...every layer decreases internal bore dia from forcing cone to choke...so......pressures rise..and problems happen...recoil increases.... No matter what
You do...it wont help...did some math by the way..
If you use BB shot steel...whixhnis 2x larger than BB lead... Youll have about 35/40 pellets in your shot with square load of 75gr... And velocity will be 1000fps or less...... Energy of about a 410 2.5" load...not gonna do well on a duck or goose
Like i said . 25 shots...it works. 26 it works...27th
Boom...gun blows with a field load...no matter what
Steel is not designed to work with BP or pyrodex.
Youd need 150gr of powder to break 1200 fps. Its a concept that falls to " to many variables"...theres a reason that ammunition makers never tried it. If they did...im sure proper load data and components would be avail
 
Rebelson said:
You say some wads melt, do you remember the brand you've tried that didn't?
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Yeah, not much fun to clean out plastic. Even used a modern 20ga with a chrome bore and black powder with less than pleasant results.

I don't remember the brands as I quit using them many years ago. I suspect that they get material scrubbed off as well as melted if black powder fouling hardens up when lube isn't used. It's surprising how hard and grainy it can feel.

Good luck with your testing. I would think some thick box board or similar material would give a little cushioning and protect the internal surfaces.
 
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