Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun

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Yeah, not much fun to clean out plastic. Even used a modern 20ga with a chrome bore and black powder with less than pleasant results.

I don't remember the brands as I quit using them many years ago. I suspect that they get material scrubbed off as well as melted if black powder fouling hardens up when lube isn't used. It's surprising how hard and grainy it can feel.

Good luck with your testing. I would think some thick box board or similar material would give a little cushioning and protect the internal surfaces.

I found that engine tuner like Mercury Quicksilver or Amzoil soaked for a bit, and a torpedo brush on a cordless drill works wonders for wad build up in smokeless guns, and some hot water , with BP, soap and a cordless will make it come out in a big sheath!
Another really BAD characteristic about using BP and plastic wads is that the wad residue builds up very quickly - to the point where by the end of 10 or so rounds , a definite increase in recoil is noticed because of the constriction of the built up wad fouling.
After a round of trap, the recoil is really huge!
With the bridging characteristics of steel, it's just another reason to stay away from steel loads and vintage Damascus barreled guns.

We found this out in 1986, never again! For a hunting round maybe, but why bother when there are better alternatives?
Cat
 
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A brush wrapped with 0000 steel wool and spun in and out of the shotgun barrel removes plastic wad fouling pretty fast.
 
When your out at a rendezvous shoot...you use volumetric measures... Ive never in my life heard a person weigh powder at a range or on a wood walk
With a digital scale...to each their own..i shoot flintlock also...from a brass volumetric measure
I shoot a custom built flint trade gun 62 cal smoothbore built by david dolliver....
By the way...ALL PLASTIC WADS MELT with BP..
The heat deforms and blows by the cushion wads.
The mixture of fiber wads and melted plastic..cools...dries on barrel...forms layer every shot...every layer decreases internal bore dia from forcing cone to choke...so......pressures rise..and problems happen...recoil increases.... No matter what
You do...it wont help...did some math by the way..
If you use BB shot steel...whixhnis 2x larger than BB lead... Youll have about 35/40 pellets in your shot with square load of 75gr... And velocity will be 1000fps or less...... Energy of about a 410 2.5" load...not gonna do well on a duck or goose
Like i said . 25 shots...it works. 26 it works...27th
Boom...gun blows with a field load...no matter what
Steel is not designed to work with BP or pyrodex.
Youd need 150gr of powder to break 1200 fps. Its a concept that falls to " to many variables"...theres a reason that ammunition makers never tried it. If they did...im sure proper load data and components would be avail

I'm still having a hard time understanding why a gun that's been proofed and the steel isn't contacting the barrel would explode on the 25th round? A proof is a proof, I understand the concern of plastic wads fouling the bore and constricting the bore and I'm looking into a work around for that at the moment. But the pressures are the same? Also with my 50 cal pedersoli scout I use plastic test tubes with caps bought by the 100 pack on amazon. I pre-weigh the charges and put them in my range bag, for a wood's walk or hunt I throw 4-5 in my pocket. Faster reload and absolute consistency
 
When your out at a rendezvous shoot...you use volumetric measures... Ive never in my life heard a person weigh powder at a range or on a wood walk
With a digital scale...to each their own..i shoot flintlock also...from a brass volumetric measure
I shoot a custom built flint trade gun 62 cal smoothbore built by david dolliver....
By the way...ALL PLASTIC WADS MELT with BP..
The heat deforms and blows by the cushion wads.
The mixture of fiber wads and melted plastic..cools...dries on barrel...forms layer every shot...every layer decreases internal bore dia from forcing cone to choke...so......pressures rise..and problems happen...recoil increases.... No matter what
You do...it wont help...did some math by the way..
If you use BB shot steel...whixhnis 2x larger than BB lead... Youll have about 35/40 pellets in your shot with square load of 75gr... And velocity will be 1000fps or less...... Energy of about a 410 2.5" load...not gonna do well on a duck or goose
Like i said . 25 shots...it works. 26 it works...27th
Boom...gun blows with a field load...no matter what
Steel is not designed to work with BP or pyrodex.
Youd need 150gr of powder to break 1200 fps. Its a concept that falls to " to many variables"...theres a reason that ammunition makers never tried it. If they did...im sure proper load data and components would be avail

Your right about the velocity requirements, I'll hang up the idea of hunting with it but I'm still going to follow through for proof of concept
 
I'm still having a hard time understanding why a gun that's been proofed and the steel isn't contacting the barrel would explode on the 25th round? A proof is a proof, I understand the concern of plastic wads fouling the bore and constricting the bore and I'm looking into a work around for that at the moment. But the pressures are the same? Also with my 50 cal pedersoli scout I use plastic test tubes with caps bought by the 100 pack on amazon. I pre-weigh the charges and put them in my range bag, for a wood's walk or hunt I throw 4-5 in my pocket. Faster reload and absolute consistency

I might have it all wrong, but a "proof" is an engineering concept that a system undergoes an enthusiastic "over-pressure", in order to ensure it will endure a lower rated pressure for it's service life - including unforeseen hiccups - like a bug or a raindrop deciding to land in the muzzle at the exact instant that you fire. So, I presume, the concept is based that the parameters of the test item will not change in service, from when it was "proofed". If you "proofed" a beam for a bridge, to hold up the bridge and it's load - that probably assumes that you won't be hanging a bunch of subsequent structure from that beam, and still consider it to hold it's original "proofed" load. If you understand that the plastic wads will build up restriction and therefore increase pressure, then that "proof" that you did becomes less and less significant. Kind of like "proving" that you have 25% safety factor, then using up 3/4's or more of that safety factor, in a service load.
 
I'm still having a hard time understanding why a gun that's been proofed and the steel isn't contacting the barrel would explode on the 25th round? A proof is a proof, I understand the concern of plastic wads fouling the bore and constricting the bore and I'm looking into a work around for that at the moment. But the pressures are the same? Also with my 50 cal pedersoli scout I use plastic test tubes with caps bought by the 100 pack on amazon. I pre-weigh the charges and put them in my range bag, for a wood's walk or hunt I throw 4-5 in my pocket. Faster reload and absolute consistency

A proof is a proof..but now those barrels are 150 yrs old...metal ages...they are welded...pattern welded barrels deriorate.rust over the yrs...in between welds...things you dont see...pitting in the bores
Is material not there anymore...when barrels were firstly proofed they fired. Proof loads . if it passed...gun went into service... But Over time...owners may have fired smokeless magnums in it??? Stressed it even more..Who knows before you owned it..hom many owners and rounds its seen since 1870 or so. Your gambling... If it was to rupture in the field shooting Steel with people around you ( buddy hunting) and you both get injured? Then what
Do you know what i mean...
 
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I might have it all wrong, but a "proof" is an engineering concept that a system undergoes an enthusiastic "over-pressure", in order to ensure it will endure a lower rated pressure for it's service life - including unforeseen hiccups - like a bug or a raindrop deciding to land in the muzzle at the exact instant that you fire. So, I presume, the concept is based that the parameters of the test item will not change in service, from when it was "proofed". If you "proofed" a beam for a bridge, to hold up the bridge and it's load - that probably assumes that you won't be hanging a bunch of subsequent structure from that beam, and still consider it to hold it's original "proofed" load. If you understand that the plastic wads will build up restriction and therefore increase pressure, then that "proof" that you did becomes less and less significant. Kind of like "proving" that you have 25% safety factor, then using up 3/4's or more of that safety factor, in a service load.

As stated above I'm working on a way around using plastic wads, there's always an alternative
 
A proof is a proof..but now those barrels are 150 yrs old...metal ages...they are welded...pattern welded barrels deriorate.rust over the yrs...in between welds...things you dont see...pitting in the bores
Is material not there anymore...when barrels were firstly proofed they fired. Proof loads . if it passed...gun went into service... But Over time...owners may have fired smokeless magnums in it??? Stressed it even more..Who knows before you owned it..hom many owners and rounds its seen since 1870 or so. Your gambling... If it was to rupture in the field shooting Steel with people around you ( buddy hunting) and you both get injured? Then what
Do you know what i mean...

I've already stated this SxS has been reproofed last week, if I remember correctly (which is a gamble) a proof is 50 percent overcharged for 5 rounds per barrel. I reproofed it with 10 per barrel. I now trust those barrels. You say you shoot Damascus shotguns, so your rolling the dice hoping that the next 75gn charge doesn't pop in your hands. I refuse to put Damascus next to my face without a proof to my standards which surpasses the proof house standards... but if you don't want to proof them before shouldering them it's your face not mine.
 
I've already stated this SxS has been reproofed last week, if I remember correctly (which is a gamble) a proof is 50 percent overcharged for 5 rounds per barrel. I reproofed it with 10 per barrel. I now trust those barrels. You say you shoot Damascus shotguns, so your rolling the dice hoping that the next 75gn charge doesn't pop in your hands. I refuse to put Damascus next to my face without a proof to my standards which surpasses the proof house standards... but if you don't want to proof them before shouldering them it's your face not mine.

I think you mis-understand the concept of proofing. Here's a mechanical engineers take on the subject. Proofing was developed as a "necessary evil" to test firearms over a century ago. With the rather primitive manufacturing and metallurgical methods available, proofing was devised as a way of ascertaining poor metallurgical properties, and in particular, flaws that were present in critical parts of the gun. These flaws would not necessarily be visible to the naked eye. A flaw of sufficient size would lead to failure on proof, hence the term destructive testing.
Where proofing falls short is when smaller flaws are present. These have the ability to propagate cracks under cyclic loads. The magnitude of the load, and size of the crack, determines how many cycles to failure. This phenomenon is very well understood in machines such as jet engines. Non-destructive examination (radiography, ultra-sound, etc) is used extensively to survey parts for integrity. NDE is also used in the manufacture of firearms. Proofing has been retained as a legal requirement in some countries, but is also employed to test the basic function of the firearm.
Your proof tests are inconclusive and possibly dangerous as you dont know the magnitude of the stress you are imposing. If you are substantially above the endurance limit, you are in the grey area of finite cycle fatigue. Testing with one or two proof loads at the right pressure is sufficient to test for large flaws, anything beyond that can be contributing to fatigue.(ie you have reduced the service life of the gun, even with normal loads.)
I understand you're a young fella with a keen interest in firearms - we were all like that at one time. Just be mindful that inductive learning can have much more negative consequence that deductive learning. Good luck with your endeavours, whatever they are.
 
I think you mis-understand the concept of proofing. Here's a mechanical engineers take on the subject. Proofing was developed as a "necessary evil" to test firearms over a century ago. With the rather primitive manufacturing and metallurgical methods available, proofing was devised as a way of ascertaining poor metallurgical properties, and in particular, flaws that were present in critical parts of the gun. These flaws would not necessarily be visible to the naked eye. A flaw of sufficient size would lead to failure on proof, hence the term destructive testing.
Where proofing falls short is when smaller flaws are present. These have the ability to propagate cracks under cyclic loads. The magnitude of the load, and size of the crack, determines how many cycles to failure. This phenomenon is very well understood in machines such as jet engines. Non-destructive examination (radiography, ultra-sound, etc) is used extensively to survey parts for integrity. NDE is also used in the manufacture of firearms. Proofing has been retained as a legal requirement in some countries, but is also employed to test the basic function of the firearm.
Your proof tests are inconclusive and possibly dangerous as you dont know the magnitude of the stress you are imposing. If you are substantially above the endurance limit, you are in the grey area of finite cycle fatigue. Testing with one or two proof loads at the right pressure is sufficient to test for large flaws, anything beyond that can be contributing to fatigue.(ie you have reduced the service life of the gun, even with normal loads.)
I understand you're a young fella with a keen interest in firearms - we were all like that at one time. Just be mindful that inductive learning can have much more negative consequence that deductive learning. Good luck with your endeavours, whatever they are.

Thanks, you just gave me tonight's research topic. I'll only proof following the proof house standards going forward. You seem to be about a million years ahead of me in metallurgical science. What options are there for safe evaluation of a firearms working condition that cost less than 2k to invest in. Most of my projects are antiques or surplus and I'd like to have the tech on hand if it doesn't cost half a million IF possible. But for now I'll still have to rely on the try'd and true method of proofing as I don't have any other options and most shooting Damascus don't have access to the equipment necessary ether. Sadly for most it seems you ether proof it yourself and call it good or you don't shoot Damascus, wether the test is crude or not. I love black powder way to much to stop buying and shooting these old guns.
 
I had a friend that use to shoot 3inch 12ga shells in a 2 3/4 inch chamber.He got away with it but he could have lost half his face every time he pulled the trigger. Stress and metal fatigue can happen instantly or after a long period of time so just because a stressed firearm doesn’t blow today doesn’t mean it won t blow up eventually.
Older firearms can also suffer from crystallization of the metal with age and can be a ticking time bomb
 
I had a friend that use to shoot 3inch 12ga shells in a 2 3/4 inch chamber.He got away with it but he could have lost half his face every time he pulled the trigger. Stress and metal fatigue can happen instantly or after a long period of time so just because a stressed firearm doesn’t blow today doesn’t mean it won t blow up eventually.
Older firearms can also suffer from crystallization of the metal with age and can be a ticking time bomb

Are you attending the waverly show this weekend Chasseur?
 
Thanks, you just gave me tonight's research topic. I'll only proof following the proof house standards going forward. You seem to be about a million years ahead of me in metallurgical science. What options are there for safe evaluation of a firearms working condition that cost less than 2k to invest in. Most of my projects are antiques or surplus and I'd like to have the tech on hand if it doesn't cost half a million IF possible. But for now I'll still have to rely on the try'd and true method of proofing as I don't have any other options and most shooting Damascus don't have access to the equipment necessary ether. Sadly for most it seems you ether proof it yourself and call it good or you don't shoot Damascus, wether the test is crude or not. I love black powder way to much to stop buying and shooting these old guns.

I much less told you the same thing...150 yr old steel does not have the intergrity it did when new....tread lightly..treat the gun way it was made to be used...it will likely last another 100 yrs....my 5 cents...
 
I would not reproof a gun as this can do more harm than good. A visual inspection and shoot it with normal loads if it looks okay.

If theirs a visual flaw like a pit something that can be don is use an acid this will loosen whatever rust is left in the pit and show you the extent of the damage. Proofing even a modern firearm could fatigue the metal enough to cause issues.

Theirs lots of things to experiment with in life but firearms especially antique ones isn’t something I’d like to experiment with i like my face and fingers where they are.
 
I much less told you the same thing...150 yr old steel does not have the intergrity it did when new....tread lightly..treat the gun way it was made to be used...it will likely last another 100 yrs....my 5 cents...

Yes but he provided critical details about different ways i could check the barrels integrity that can be fact checked, not just "hey don't do that trust me thats stupid" anecdotal evidence. I eagerly await his response as I'm willing to spend money on equipment I'll need one day anyway. I still don't know why you said it may blow on the 25th after i wrote off the idea of plastic wads, then i said i proofed with lead and you still said the gun might let go even using lead?..while you hit the range with a Damascus shotgun? Do you or don't you trust Damascus? I'm having issues finding out which side of the debate your on...
 
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I would not reproof a gun as this can do more harm than good. A visual inspection and shoot it with normal loads if it looks okay.

If theirs a visual flaw like a pit something that can be don is use an acid this will loosen whatever rust is left in the pit and show you the extent of the damage. Proofing even a modern firearm could fatigue the metal enough to cause issues.

Theirs lots of things to experiment with in life but firearms especially antique ones isn’t something I’d like to experiment with i like my face and fingers where they are.

All experiments are done from a distance in a vice, as much as some disapprove im going forward and still trust reproofing. The only thing I'll do now is proof with 5 per barrel as done in a proof house (that are still in operation with more years experience than me or anyone in this forum that never worked in one) followed by another 20 regular loads from the vice to ensure the proof didn't cause detrimental harm, if its going to let go it will then from a distance. If it doesn't let go I personally feel comfortable after inspection to fire it from the shoulder. Alot of guys here said stick to lead then swapped they're answer to don't shoot it? I am looking into other methods of barrel evaluation but I'd love to know what you guys do to check a barrel before firing, seems like I'm going way further to prove safe than the ones shooting Damascus and telling me not to?
 
All experiments are done from a distance in a vice, as much as some disapprove im going forward and still trust reproofing. The only thing I'll do now is proof with 5 per barrel as done in a proof house (that are still in operation with more years experience than me or anyone in this forum that never worked in one) followed by another 20 regular loads from the vice to ensure the proof didn't cause detrimental harm, if its going to let go it will then from a distance. If it doesn't let go I personally feel comfortable after inspection to fire it from the shoulder. Alot of guys here said stick to lead then swapped they're answer to don't shoot it? I am looking into other methods of barrel evaluation but I'd love to know what you guys do to check a barrel before firing, seems like I'm going way further to prove safe than the ones shooting Damascus and telling me not to?

I am coming into this a bit late but nobody seems to have mentioned having plastic melt onto the inside of the barrel if you are shooting black powder with plastic shot cups for steel in your gun. If you want to shoot steel, I would be inclined to use smokeless with plastic shotcups for steel shot and that does leave the problem of how much powder to use. My impression is that the pressures of modern shells loaded with steel shot, are higher than those for lead shot, in order to get a higher velocity. I do recall seeing a shotgun with parallel streaks down the bore from shooting steel shot loaded with the earlier thin plastic shotcups. You do need something to protect the bore from the steel shot and you might want to think about some stiff card stock to create a barrier between the shot and the barrel

cheers mooncoon
 
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