Discussion thread - 2024 - 100 yard .22LR challenge
- Thread starter grauhanen
- Start date
A picture of the rifle was included in the Challenge thread. But I don't mind showing it again.
Below are all of Monday's targets, warts included.
How about giving the rest of us a chance to get caught up LOLA picture of the rifle was included in the Challenge thread. But I don't mind showing it again.
Below are all of Monday's targets, warts included.
Nice shooting BTW.
Thanks, Meroh.
On a shooting-related note that may be familiar to shooters at 100 yards, it's not uncommon to see rounds have somewhat unexpected POI. POI usually reasonably correlates with ammo MV, but often enough it doesn't. MV and POI are mismatched. Faster rounds can strike lower than slower ones and vise versa. Two rounds with very different MVs can have the same POI or two rounds with the same MVs can have very different POI.
Below are two examples that I observed this morning. The first is the first ten shot group I shot with a lot of M+, the second is the last ten shot group I shot with the same lot. Ammo MV had increased with this lot as time passed.
In the first example, nine rounds went into a "group" and there was one stray. The nine rounds in the group had MVs from 1048.5 fps to 1068.1 fps. The stray wasn't errant because of its MV.
In the second example, two rounds, shots 9 and 10, had very nearly the same MV but they had very different POI, separated by almost one inch of vertical.
On a shooting-related note that may be familiar to shooters at 100 yards, it's not uncommon to see rounds have somewhat unexpected POI. POI usually reasonably correlates with ammo MV, but often enough it doesn't. MV and POI are mismatched. Faster rounds can strike lower than slower ones and vise versa. Two rounds with very different MVs can have the same POI or two rounds with the same MVs can have very different POI.
Below are two examples that I observed this morning. The first is the first ten shot group I shot with a lot of M+, the second is the last ten shot group I shot with the same lot. Ammo MV had increased with this lot as time passed.
In the first example, nine rounds went into a "group" and there was one stray. The nine rounds in the group had MVs from 1048.5 fps to 1068.1 fps. The stray wasn't errant because of its MV.
In the second example, two rounds, shots 9 and 10, had very nearly the same MV but they had very different POI, separated by almost one inch of vertical.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I always said rimfire are like dice, you never know what you are going to roll.
My guess is some other factor, is the cause of the split in group of equal velocities. I assume even quality ammo is still massed produced that still not perfect.
My guess is some other factor, is the cause of the split in group of equal velocities. I assume even quality ammo is still massed produced that still not perfect.
Some of the best ammo seems to often be the greasiest. I have yet to try, but I wonder if excessive lube on the bullet or on the cases from handling during loading might have an effect? I may try wiping ammo before loading in mags at some point. Anyone else try this?Thanks, Meroh.
On a shooting-related note that may be familiar to shooters at 100 yards, it's not uncommon to see rounds have somewhat unexpected POI. POI usually reasonably correlates with ammo MV, but often enough it doesn't. MV and POI are mismatched. Faster rounds can strike lower than slower ones and vise versa. Two rounds with very different MVs can have the same POI or two rounds with the same MVs can have very different POI.
Below are two examples that I observed this morning. The first is the first ten shot group I shot with a lot of M+, the second is the last ten shot group I shot with the same lot. Ammo MV had increased with this lot as time passed.
In the first example, nine rounds went into a "group" and there was one stray. The nine rounds in the group had MVs from 1048.5 fps to 1068.1 fps. The stray wasn't errant because of its MV.
In the second example, two rounds, shots 9 and 10, had very nearly the same MV but they had very different POI, separated by almost one inch of vertical.
A couple of years ago a shooting buddy of mine experimented with wiping rimfire ammo. He tried a few different methods, even tried isopropyl alcohol. Long story is it was very time consuming and all attempts produced poor results compared to unaltered ammo.
I've seen "extra" lube once on ammo such as SK -- and it did make a significant difference. The lube on the many 1000's of rounds of Midas I've shot has been consistent and not an issue.
I suspect the culprit is something shooters can't see. I suspect the culprit is very small differences between bullets in shape, form, and/or center of gravity. The bullet heel is delicate and more prone to be misshapen than other parts of the bullet. In addition, unlike jacketed centerfire bullets, it's difficult to manufacture soft lead projectiles such as .22LR bullets and airgun pellets that consistently have nearly perfect centers of gravity.
Center of gravity differences are a major cause of different rates of group dispersion as distance increases. It's a key reason why some lots of the same variety of ammo do better at longer distances than others.
Differences in any or all of these can cause a round to have a different trajectory than another having the same MV. The differences become more and more obvious as distance increases.
Some bores and chambers/leades contribute to improving or worsening Cg by the way they obturate the rounds as they pass through the bore. This is part of the explanation why some rifles/barrels are better shooters at longer distances than others -- even with the same good ammo.
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- Location
- Nova Scotia
Tried it with Tac 22 ( black box ) I know not the most quality ammo. But the lots I have are like they dunked it in oil. Makes it very difficult to load into 10/22 mags. So I tried spraying a cloth with 99% alcohol and wiping down the rounds. And like Longstud, I had similar results.
If it wasnt required they wouldnt bother putting it on. As much a PITA it is I think the synthetic variety is much more reliable in our inclement weather. Tallow and wax isnt really suited for our weather extremes. Ive had spectacular accuracy with the Eley variants and actually better groups on average for the last couple years , however. That goop builds up and causes problems after a while. Dont blow a gasket just yet. For BR shooters its not a problem but for other disiplines it has proven to be one for me. My semi custom gun has run over 15,000 rounds without any malfunction, until I started shooting Eley which shot better groups at all ranges out too 400 plus yards. The first time it failed was like a major shock too me. Cleaned the gun and was good for a while and then another FTF. I just kept shooting too see what happened and the FTF rate started to increase. The lube accumulates up like making a candle, the layers just keep building. I now just tear my gun down completely much more than before and have no problems. Bolt guns wont probably be affected the same but just an FYI and when the temp drops it gets worse in my experience
I have noted more FTF Eley rounds as of late.
Those are not shot in competition but go into a "Fouler Box".
Then they go off and the lube is deposited.
Out of competition, those FTF rounds are extracted, given a 1/4 turn and they go off. I can't tell the differnce.
Those are not shot in competition but go into a "Fouler Box".
Then they go off and the lube is deposited.
Out of competition, those FTF rounds are extracted, given a 1/4 turn and they go off. I can't tell the differnce.
I was thinking degreasing the cases, not the bullets.
The last thing you want in a CF frifle is a lubricated case, I would think that a lubricated case, even in a .22 would normally expand and grip the chamber; I kknow they do in my Super Match barrel. Dry lubed or copper washed bullets have cases that occasionally are slightly harder to extract.
I do realize that maybe cheaper ammo my also have more tolerance in the brass dimensions.
Just thinking out loud. LOL
My 455 was not new when I got it. I put about 600 rounds through it of CCI Std and Tack .22, I noted that bullets were getting harder to chamber and tighter to remove. I gave it a good cleaning. I think it was a combo of tight chamber, tight headspace combined with carbon (chemical ash GSR) building up a bit faster than with dry bullets. It took way more scrubbing that I would have thought to get it moving freely again. I can only imagine the issues with a target grade semi.
They just don't feel quite as greasy when it's cold. LOL
Here's another example of ammo behaviour where MV and POI clearly don't match. This happens regularly is increasingly obvious as distance increases. Faster rounds may strike lower than slower ones and vise versa. Rounds with different MVs may have the same POI.
In the group below, shot #10 had the fastest MV at 1094.9 fps but it had the lowest POI of all the ten rounds in the group.
The ES of the other rounds was 1072.2 fps - 1089.5 fps.
In the group below, shot #10 had the fastest MV at 1094.9 fps but it had the lowest POI of all the ten rounds in the group.
The ES of the other rounds was 1072.2 fps - 1089.5 fps.
I know that in our sport, we try and remove the variables so that each shot is a repeatable clone of the last one. Yet visually from a statistical standpoint one might conclude that it is a fairly even random distribution, and graphically the SD appears to be sot so bad either. When Groups like this become repeatable, that is a good sign that we are approaching the apex of what either we, our rigs, our ammo have been taken to their present limit; time to look for other things to improve that we may never have considered..Here's another example of ammo behaviour where MV and POI clearly don't match. This happens regularly is increasingly obvious as distance increases. Faster rounds may strike lower than slower ones and vise versa. Rounds with different MVs may have the same POI.
In the group below, shot #10 had the fastest MV at 1094.9 fps but it had the lowest POI of all the ten rounds in the group.
The ES of the other rounds was 1072.2 fps - 1089.5 fps.
There's little need to look for other things to improve results at 100 when the basics are established. Shooter skill aside, below are three essential elements. After all three are satisfied then other things can be sought.
A first requirement for good results at 100 is a good rifle/barrel. Without this even the best ammo the shooter can't outshoot the rifle. Fortunately a good rifle is not hard to find.
A second necessity is good ammo. No rifle, no mater the make, will outshoot the ammo. In other words, if the ammo isn't good the rifle can't do the job.
A third requirement is knowing when to shoot. Shooting good results at 100 yards requires one of two things. Either an excellent ability to read wind flags (which is increasingly difficult the further the target) or as much an absence of air movement between shooter and target as possible.
Of these three basics, the first and the third are the easiest to achieve. Anyone can buy a good rifle and anyone can shoot in calm conditions. It's the second, the ammo that's hardest to get. Even the best lots of Lapua available are not quite as good as shooters would prefer, with variation within lots common. Unfortunately, in Canada we don't get a wide selection of ammo from which to choose.
Below is an example shot this morning with one of the best lots of Midas + that I've tested this year. The three groups show what is not unusual -- an average group, a group marred by strays, and something very good. Of course if enough targets are shot, a good one or two will inevitably be produced.
A first requirement for good results at 100 is a good rifle/barrel. Without this even the best ammo the shooter can't outshoot the rifle. Fortunately a good rifle is not hard to find.
A second necessity is good ammo. No rifle, no mater the make, will outshoot the ammo. In other words, if the ammo isn't good the rifle can't do the job.
A third requirement is knowing when to shoot. Shooting good results at 100 yards requires one of two things. Either an excellent ability to read wind flags (which is increasingly difficult the further the target) or as much an absence of air movement between shooter and target as possible.
Of these three basics, the first and the third are the easiest to achieve. Anyone can buy a good rifle and anyone can shoot in calm conditions. It's the second, the ammo that's hardest to get. Even the best lots of Lapua available are not quite as good as shooters would prefer, with variation within lots common. Unfortunately, in Canada we don't get a wide selection of ammo from which to choose.
Below is an example shot this morning with one of the best lots of Midas + that I've tested this year. The three groups show what is not unusual -- an average group, a group marred by strays, and something very good. Of course if enough targets are shot, a good one or two will inevitably be produced.
This has been my struggle. I'm inexperienced at both reading wind flags and knowing when to shoot. I shoot way too fast most of the time. With 30min relays, I'm typically done in 15 max. Shooting quickly works well for me only if there is no wind, or wind that is constant and not changing direction. Once it gets switchy, this strategy is poor, and I really noticed this at the last club match. Especially out to 200m.
Part of it is seeing other shooters finish before me so I start to speed up. No need for me to be doing this and definitely causing me to drop points I don't need to.
In addition to bringing out my wind flags more, I really need to practice a more slow and steady approach, and remind myself that the top score for these relays is achieved by the most points... not the quickest time.
Part of it is seeing other shooters finish before me so I start to speed up. No need for me to be doing this and definitely causing me to drop points I don't need to.
In addition to bringing out my wind flags more, I really need to practice a more slow and steady approach, and remind myself that the top score for these relays is achieved by the most points... not the quickest time.
