Almost nothing left in a 9mm Rifle

apexanimal said:
You dont get to compare a premium rifle manufacturer to your Brazilian or turkish rifle that is cheaper to prove a point, thats called being disingenuous. When comparing the tc73 to other tc73 rifles they actually make in different calibers it is at minimum similarly priced (1999 usd vs 2150 for the 357) This proves making the rifle 9mm didnt magically incur some ridiculous cost. Yes its the only one, at some point there is a first of anything, all this proves is there was lack of demand until now, nothing else. The fact they cant keep the 9mm tc73 in stock even with the premium price tag of the company means people will start to copy it.
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You just did, you used them to suggest that theres opportunity, opportunity which would be taken up by the suppliers of such rifles…

Are you sure you understand what youre arguing about? You seem to have lost the plot a little.

That they can’t keep it in stock doesn't suggest its a good seller any more than it suggest its so complicated they don’t produce it much, due to cost… see how an anecdote isn’t a data point?


apexanimal said:
Logic left the conversion when you realized you didnt have any proof and decided to go ad hominem.
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Ooof You really don’t understand what you just said there, and its pretty hilarious to watch you lambast yourself without realizing it.
 
apexanimal said:
All of this is to cope with the fact i posted proof making a lever gun in 9mm doesnt raise the cost, fyi.
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Oh there's some cope alright...

One of us is using an out of stock price to make his argument...

Meanwhile in the real world, the 9mm costs hundreds more...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...lEvUtk2gnDMgD76PsvRey3aMSNwUgPsHeY&pid=619244

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/121400/taylors+&+company+1873+taylor+tune+357+mag+lever+action+rifle

And yes, that's a taylor tuned 357, I checked the product number to make sure. It's even got an octagon barrel which is usually a premium feature.

Feel free to disprove me with a cheaper 9mm that someone can actually buy.
 
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Yeah who'd do something so stupid as comparing msrp from the manufacturer for an accurate comparison, when you could cherry pick each model from different stores! Good job proving there is more demand for the 9mm tho if stores are marking it up. You've lost the plot so I'll remind you, i said they dont cost more to produce, the msrp proves that. Stores can and do charge more for in demand items, that does not make them more expensive to produce.
 
apexanimal said:
Yeah who'd do something so stupid as comparing msrp from the manufacturer for an accurate comparison
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Yeah, because msrp from gun manufacturers is a good barometer of real world cost....

And out of stock msrp no less...

At Prohet River the 9mm were listed at $2699. The most expensive Taylor's 1873 PR has right now is $2350 - and that's a Taylor Tuned gun with an msrp of $2095, further proving MSRP is meaningless for our purposes.


Again, you are free to find a cheaper 9mm and prove me wrong.
 
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Maybe if you edit a few more of your comments it will make you believe i at any point was arguing over the intricacies of supply and demand. The tc73 in 9mm does not inherently cost more to produce due to its chambering. That was, is, and will always be my point.
 
apexanimal said:
The tc73 in 9mm does not inherently cost more to produce due to its chambering. That was, is, and will always be my point.
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Depends on how you plan to pay for r&d and such. If you assume there is no r&d cost, no new machines needed, no new supply lines, no opportunity cost to produce this rather than a different gun, then yeah. Sure.

But that's a meaningless statement once you add all the caveats required to make it true.
 
apexanimal said:
All of this is to cope with the fact i posted proof making a lever gun in 9mm doesnt raise the cost, fyi.
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apexanimal said:
Maybe if you edit a few more of your comments it will make you believe i at any point was arguing over the intricacies of supply and demand. The tc73 in 9mm does not inherently cost more to produce due to its chambering. That was, is, and will always be my point.
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Boy, imagine making those arguments back to back…


You sure showed us, that economics should be taught in high school.
 
UpperCanadaRebellion said:
Manual action would mean a proprietary mag could be limitless, but is it worth enough to make a new mag design?
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No. Cheaper to use one that is widely available and known to be reliable. No limit is cool but I'd rather not have to pay $50+ per mag. Should keep r&d costs down if they don't have to create a magazine too?

Plus using glock mags is a selling feature for anyone with glock mags already (and there's a lot of those people).



Are there any 410 box mag pump guns? I can't say I've seen one but I don't normally pay much attention to 410s...
 
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apexanimal said:
Its crazy how the TC73 lever exists in 9mm, and is cheaper than many of their other calibers. Sort of disproves literally everything the very smart engineers in this thread are saying.
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Ignoring all the name calling, I don't think anyone said that chambering in 9mm inherently costs more than other cartridges. What we have been saying is:

1) It often difficult to modify an existing model to work well in 9mm if it started out designed for a rifle cartridge. Props to Taylor for making that work, assuming they work properly.

2) It costs a lot to bring a brand new gun to market these days, so any manual action designed from scratch to work properly with 9mm will be expensive.

Suther said:
Anyways... back to the real discussion.

So we want a 9mm pump action that runs on glock mags, right? Thats what we've settled on?
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I'm not sure of that, preferences are all over the map. In a previous thread about manual action PCC's I asked if people wanted essentially a 9mm Troy PAR and only one guy thought that was a good idea.

UpperCanadaRebellion said:
Manual action would mean a proprietary mag could be limitless, but is it worth enough to make a new mag design?
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Depends on your priorities. I would prefer the proprietary mag to get ~30 rounds, but lots of people love Glock mags for their low cost and availability, despite the capacity limit.

I would also make a proprietary mag a double feed setup because they are so much easier to load than any single feed/double stack pistol mag, but it seems not very many people care about that besides me.


Mark
 
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mmattockx said:
I'm not sure of that, preferences are all over the map. In a previous thread about manual action PCC's I asked if people wanted essentially a 9mm Troy PAR and only one guy thought that was a good idea.


Depends on your priorities. I would prefer the proprietary mag to get ~30 rounds, but lots of people love Glock mags for their low cost and availability, despite the capacity limit.

I would also make a proprietary mag a double feed setup because they are so much easier to load than any single feed/double stack pistol mag, but it seems not very many people care about that besides me.


Mark
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Lol that's interesting. Literally the ONLY reason I'd think a propriety mag is better from a design perspective is then you could make it single feed, as its easier to make the gun run well if the bullet is always presented in the same spot, rather than having to make it feed from two sides of the mag.


As for the rifle, I'm fine with whatever. Bolt is good, pump is good, lever is good. My suggestion of pump was mostly to satisfy the guys who want something they can run fast, a replacement for their semi autos basically. Those people might not be interested in a bolt action?
 
Top level cope options:

1) Ignore 9mm PCCs for now and enjoy 357, or a pistol conversion kit, etc
2) Wait for industry to design a "new" 9mm manual action based on market demand and supply constraint
3) Hobbyist modify an existing 9mm PCC "host" to replace the "prohibited" receiver (towards a non-restricted manual action receiver)
4) Hobbyist modify an existing manual action "host" to replace barrel, bolt, magazine, etc (towards 9mm compatibilty)

Did I miss any?
 
Suther said:
Lol that's interesting. Literally the ONLY reason I'd think a propriety mag is better from a design perspective is then you could make it single feed, as its easier to make the gun run well if the bullet is always presented in the same spot, rather than having to make it feed from two sides of the mag.
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Double stack/single feed is less reliable on the magazine side because squeezing the stack together as it comes up to the feed lips causes friction and issues. It is why the Glock 31 round mags are fairly sketchy when loaded to capacity and why all the MP28/MP38/MP40/Sten mags are considered the weakest part of those guns.

It's much easier to make double stack/double feed work well inside the mag and rifles and SMG's long ago solved the feeding from both sides issues.

I would prefer a fast, black rifle looking pump action similar to the Troy PAR, but scaled appropriately for the 9mm/45ACP/10mm/7.62x25 pistol cartridges. This is what I have been drawing up, but life and work have overtaken me for now and I'm stalled at the point of 3D printing some prototype parts for initial fitment and ergonomic feel.

A bolt action wouldn't be too bad, depending on how the action is done, and I will never touch a lever action. They don't do anything for me and I don't like the action operation very much. Someone else can do that one.


Mark
 
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mmattockx said:
Double stack/single feed is less reliable on the magazine side because squeezing the stack together as it comes up to the feed lips causes friction and issues. It is why the Glock 31 round mags are fairly sketchy when loaded to capacity and why all the MP28/MP38/MP40/Sten mags are considered the weakest part of those guns.
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I'm well aware of the issues with the various magazine designs, I've watched plenty of Forgotten Weapons lol.

You COULD do a single stack single feed though. People keep talking about how hard it is to make 9mm feed reliably and single feed would be the easiest to design a gun around if that is one of the major hurdles for the cartridge. Plus if you did double stack single feed the manual action of the gun means friction slowing down the speed at which the bullet gets fed upward would likely be less of a concern compared to a 600RPM sub machine gun.
 
Suther said:
You COULD do a single stack single feed though.
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Might as well just use 1911 mags then. The only reason I would go to the trouble of making a proprietary mag is to get the unrestricted capacity for a run n gun style pump action. If I wasn't worried about the capacity then I would just use Glock mags and be done with it.

You are correct, a manual action will avoid the problems that full auto has with lifting the next round into place fast enough.


Mark
 
Option 2 is very low chance, if someone wanted a manual action 9mm rifle anywhere but here they would allow you to buy a schmeisser sp 9.

Prohibited in Canada as it's considered an AR-15 variant.
 
Suther said:
I'm well aware of the issues with the various magazine designs, I've watched plenty of Forgotten Weapons lol.

You COULD do a single stack single feed though. People keep talking about how hard it is to make 9mm feed reliably and single feed would be the easiest to design a gun around if that is one of the major hurdles for the cartridge. Plus if you did double stack single feed the manual action of the gun means friction slowing down the speed at which the bullet gets fed upward would likely be less of a concern compared to a 600RPM sub machine gun.
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1911 mags are not the most reliable.
 
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