6.5 Needmoor ~ Federal +Peak

Bustercluck said:
How’s the barrel life on these 7mm backcountry? I think there will be a huge difference between a hunter doing the odd 3 shot string a few times per year vs a competition shooter putting 15-20 in a short time frame many times in one weekend. I think we’ll see target shooters sticking to the old ways, but there’s definitely some gains for hunters here.

I didn’t see any benefit in switching to the 7mm backcountry when it came out unless I could run a suppressor because we can get similar performance with a longer barrel in canada, but I can get behind this suped up creedmoor. This made me a believer in this new tech.
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to answer your question...
7mm is ground.up development...
completely different animal—it is a brand-new, stand alone cartridge geometry built from scratch..

You cannot just buy a box of 7mm Backcountry and shoot it out of an old rifle. It requires a dedicated 7mm Backcountry chamber. Federal partnered directly with rifle manufacturers like Weatherby to build factory rifles with dimensions and barrel steel optimized to withstand that 80,000 psi plasma torch right out of the box.

verus

The 6.5 Creedmoor +PEAK line is designed as a pure ammunition play.

Don't buy a new rifle. Just buy our expensive steel ammunition, put it in your standard 6.5 Creedmoor, and get instant 6.5 PRC magnum velocities.

It utilizes the standard .473" bolt face and existing rifle chambers. This makes it highly enticing to the average guy who wants a massive velocity boost for a weekend hunting trip without spending $1,500 CAD on a new rifle setup.

The consumer takes on all the hidden costs of accelerated barrel burning on their existing rifle just to shoot a premium factory.

One is built.with finesse and safety...the other has pulled out all the stops!
 
For those curious. Here is the information I found about the cartridge specific to barrel wear.

how does federal use case design to prelong barrel life +11 Federal® uses different case design and material innovations across its product lines to enhance performance and protect your firearm's lifespan. Depending on the type of shooting you do, Federal specifically engineers cartridge cases to minimize gas cutting, reduce thermal wear, and contain high pressures.Federal targets case design and barrel life through a few core mechanisms:1. Peak Alloy Case Technology (Centerfire Rifles)In cartridges like the 7mm Backcountry and 6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK, Federal uses a patented, high-strength steel alloy rather than traditional brass.Extreme Pressure Containment: These steel cases can safely handle pressures up to 80,000 psi, allowing for magnum velocities using smaller powder charges and shorter barrels.Insulation Effect: Because the Peak Alloy case is incredibly strong, it acts as a containment vessel that insulates the barrel throat from the extreme heat of the burning powder, reducing the "plasma torch" gas cutting that eats away at rifling.No Case Growth: The steel cases exhibit significantly less stretch and growth than brass, which minimizes the throat erosion caused by escaping gases.
 
TheMinusHuman said:
For those curious. Here is the information I found about the cartridge specific to barrel wear.

how does federal use case design to prelong barrel life +11 Federal® uses different case design and material innovations across its product lines to enhance performance and protect your firearm's lifespan. Depending on the type of shooting you do, Federal specifically engineers cartridge cases to minimize gas cutting, reduce thermal wear, and contain high pressures.Federal targets case design and barrel life through a few core mechanisms:1. Peak Alloy Case Technology (Centerfire Rifles)In cartridges like the 7mm Backcountry and 6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK, Federal uses a patented, high-strength steel alloy rather than traditional brass.Extreme Pressure Containment: These steel cases can safely handle pressures up to 80,000 psi, allowing for magnum velocities using smaller powder charges and shorter barrels.Insulation Effect: Because the Peak Alloy case is incredibly strong, it acts as a containment vessel that insulates the barrel throat from the extreme heat of the burning powder, reducing the "plasma torch" gas cutting that eats away at rifling.No Case Growth: The steel cases exhibit significantly less stretch and growth than brass, which minimizes the throat erosion caused by escaping gases.
Click to expand...
What a pile of 💩 there ! There gonna Tell you what You wanna hear 👂 🤪😂🤣
 
Only time will tell on barrel life.

And it's not like federal would just make a cartridge that blows everyone's guns up.

Will be interesting to see more details as it comes out.

But as a military ammunition specialist (Ammunition Technical Officer) this stuff makes me nerd out.
 
Me and that is only me, I don’t get it. People that wanted there 30-06 to shoot 200fps faster they bought a 300win mag…. I wonder what is the real reasoning behind that new 6.5cm, I mean I get it that you already have the rifle on hand… who owns only one rifle anyway!
I guess now they can say to everyone who said that everything the 6.5cm does the 6.5x55 did for over a 100 years shut the fyck up bltch… hahaha
 
adamthebad said:
TIME does.tell a.lot..
but so do numbers and current tech in rifle making and materials especially some of the garbage off the shelf.

Standard 6.5 Creedmoor @ 62,000 psi @
2,500 – 3,000+ @ 1 barrel
versus
Standard 6.5 PRC @ 65,000 psi @ 1,100 – 1,500 @ 1 barrel
versus
Federal +Peak 6.5 Creedmoor @ 80,000 psi @ Estimated under 500 @ 1 barrel.

PHYSICS says there is a change.
and Barrels will change with it.

PROBLEM with corporate marketing....sales to generate money always comes first.
Click to expand...

Estimated by who? You? Based on the ideal gas law? Care to share your math? Because I just ran some rough numbers and from what I'm seeing the PRC would actually have LOWER temps than the CM, when calculated for both peak pressure reached at 1.5" of barrel and 3" of barrel. Yet we KNOW the PRC is harder on barrels. Only if you assume max pressure is reached without the bullet leaving the case does the PRC have higher temps.


PV=nRTcapacityloadmolespressureCalculated Temp
6.5 Creedmoor3.40 cm^340 grains0.115603262000psi1239c
6.5 CM PEAK3.40 cm^340 grains0.115603280000psi1678c
6.5 PRC4.665 cm^356 grains0.161853465000psi1280c
PRC PEAK4.665 cm^356 grains0.161853480000psi1639c
w/3" of barrel6.5 Creedmoor6.09 cm^340 grains0.115603262000psi2435
6.5 CM PEAK6.09 cm^340 grains0.115603280000psi3221
6.5 PRC7.355 cm^356 grains0.161853465000psi2177
PRC PEAK7.355 cm^356 grains0.161853480000psi2742
w/1.5" barrel6.5 Creedmoor4.7540 grains0.115603262000psi1839
6.5 CM PEAK4.7540 grains0.115603280000psi2452
6.5 PRC6.01556 grains0.161853465000psi1730
PRC PEAK6.01556 grains0.161853480000psi2193


We KNOW PRC goes through barrels faster. So it seems pretty clear to me that Temp alone isn't the only thing to consider here.

Interestingly, the fictional PRC PEAK has lower Temps than the 6.5CM PEAK in all situations. Which one do you think would have longer barrel life in the real world?

(As a caveat the ideal gas law isn't at all ideal in this situation, but whatever, you mentioned it)
 
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Suther said:
Estimated by who? You? Based on the ideal gas law? Care to share your math? Because I just ran some rough numbers and from what I'm seeing the PRC would actually have LOWER temps than the CM, when calculated for both peak pressure reached at 1.5" of barrel and 3" of barrel. Yet we KNOW the PRC is harder on barrels. Only if you assume max pressure is reached without the bullet leaving the case does the PRC have higher temps.


PV=nRTcapacityloadmolespressureCalculated Temp
6.5 Creedmoor3.40 cm^340 grains0.115603262000psi1239c
6.5 CM PEAK3.40 cm^340 grains0.115603280000psi1678c
6.5 PRC4.665 cm^356 grains0.161853465000psi1280c
PRC PEAK4.665 cm^356 grains0.161853480000psi1639c
w/3" of barrel6.5 Creedmoor6.09 cm^340 grains0.115603262000psi2435
6.5 CM PEAK6.09 cm^340 grains0.115603280000psi3221
6.5 PRC7.355 cm^356 grains0.161853465000psi2177
PRC PEAK7.355 cm^356 grains0.161853480000psi2742
w/1.5" barrel6.5 Creedmoor4.7540 grains0.115603262000psi1839
6.5 CM PEAK4.7540 grains0.115603280000psi2452
6.5 PRC6.01556 grains0.161853465000psi1730
PRC PEAK6.01556 grains0.161853480000psi2193


We KNOW PRC goes through barrels faster. So it seems pretty clear to me that Temp alone isn't the only thing to consider here.

Interestingly, the fictional PRC PEAK has lower Temps than the 6.5CM PEAK in all situations. Which one do you think would have longer barrel life in the real world?

(As a caveat the ideal gas law isn't at all ideal in this situation, but whatever, you mentioned it)
Click to expand...
AND.since you mantion numbers..where yours are .vaporware...since you mentioned it...
Ideal gas law is the fundamental physics...
framework used to explain internal ballistics, including Federal's high-pressure rounds.
that the physics..

to go further.....
Traditional magnums increase velocity by packing a massive amount of powder (n) into a giant casing (V). This produces high speed but generates massive heat (T)), which destroys barrels.

Federal’s Peak Alloy Case Tech shrinks the volume (V) down to a standard short-action cartridge size. By burning a smaller, specialized powder charge inside a tighter space, they spike the Pressure (P) to an unprecedented 80,000+ psi. This achieves magnum-level velocity out of short barrels without generating the massive, flame-torching heat (T) of traditional overbore magnums.

other.phyics that apply...
The First Law of Thermodynamics (Energy Conservation),
Newton’s Second and Third Laws of Motion,
Hooke's Law of Elasticity,
Vieille’s Law : The Burning Rate Law of Propellants,
Hooke’s - Lame’s Equations for Thick-Walled Cylinders
 
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adamthebad said:
This achieves magnum-level velocity out of short barrels without generating the massive, flame-torching heat (T) of traditional overbore magnums.
Click to expand...

This statement seems to be the opposite of what you keep arguing? If it doesn't produce the "flame-torching heat of traditional overbore magnums" wouldn't that mean the PEAK CM should have longer barrel life than the PRC?
 
Suther said:
This statement seems to be the opposite of what you keep arguing? If it doesn't produce the "flame-torching heat of traditional overbore magnums" wouldn't that mean the PEAK CM should have longer barrel life than the PRC?
Click to expand...
The phrase *without generating the massive, flame-torching heat *refers strictly to the total thermal mass (the total amount of powder burned). However, when you factor in the 80,000 PSI pressure spike, the physics flip.
soo ....
in pure internal ballistics, and then your skepticism is completely justified.
The breakdown of why a 6.5 Creedmoor +PEAK will actually have a shorter barrel life than a standard 6.5 PRC, despite burning less powder... less but FASTER.


PRC
achieves its velocity by burning a large volume of powder (~50+ grains) at a standard pressure of roughly 65,000 PSI. It acts like a large campfire: it outputs a large volume of heat over a longer duration, which steadily erodes the throat over roughly 1,100 to 1,500 rounds.

Federal
The +PEAK load uses a smaller volume of powder (~40+ grains), but compresses and detonates it at a violent 80,000 PSI. By compressing that gas into a tiny volume, the peak instantaneous temperature at the exact millisecond of ignition skyrockets.

The nuclear-level rebuttal from ballisticians relies on Vieille’s Law and gas dynamics.
When a propellant burns at 80,000 PSI, the gas is moving at extreme velocity the exact instant the bullet engraves into the rifling. At that microscopic window of time, the ultra-pressurized gas acts exactly like a high-velocity plasma torch. It forces intense heat into the molecular structure of the barrel steel, causing immediate micro-cracking (thermal checking).
Even though there is "less total powder," the intensity of the localized pressure blast strips away the throat steel at a much faster rate.

Less. powder; with different chemical and physical.engineerig...
Every grain of gun powder is coated in chemical deterrents,
plus
they are meticulously engineered physical shapes designed to control surface area
 AND
process engineering (how it burns)


 
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Until anybody acquired enough peak ammo to burn a barrel and do an independent test, all we have is federals word that it doesn't burn barrels much faster than standard brass ammo.

Even then it's a moot point because you're going to buy 20 rounds of this, use 5 for sighting in, and maybe 5 more for hunting in a year.

When it's done for calibers like .300 blackout, barrel life even if cut in half would still be 5000 rounds and you'll get 308 performance.

With a 6.5prc you can't switch back to low pressure ammo to extend barrel life (unless you handload). All the pros none of the cons.

The 80k technology isn't a fad. It won't die. It'll become the new standard. An AR-15 in .300 blackout will match .308 velocities. A .308 AR-10 will reach magnum velocities. Only question is liability issues with backward compatibility on older rifles (as is with smokeless vs black powder to) and when Federal and/or other manufacturers will be able to produce enough to replace brass all together.
 
Very cool to see how companies are starting to push the boundaries on what we have seen for the last 50 years.

I will be very interested to see how long a standard 416R stainless barrel lasts with these new hot loads but i am even more interested in seeing how they shoot, SD’s and groups on paper as well as performance on long range.

Then I will be curious to see what load data becomes available for these cases and if every other manufacturer will be switching to a different aloy for their barrels like Seekins and Proof. Lots of research going into that and some form of gaintwist nowadays.
 
Kevin32 said:
Even then it's a moot point because you're going to buy 20 rounds of this, use 5 for sighting in, and maybe 5 more for hunting in a year.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine Federal thinks customers will do that. They need people to actually buy and shoot this stuff to turn a profit after all.
 

I recently finished an interesting podcast on different alloy/higher pressure rounds and gain twist barrels. It makes sense to gradually increase the twist rate to reduce the initial pressure.

They claim to be getting 3200 fps from a 73 grain .223 from an 18" barrel. This is comparable to a 22 Creedmoor with approximately the case volume.

I get 2650 fps with a 75 grain bullet out of a 20" barrel as a comparison.
 
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