6.5 Needmoor ~ Federal +Peak
- Thread starter todbartell
- Start date
I would agree with this but in thermodynamics you are comparing the same material( water) … not all powders burn at the same temperature. Imr7828 is well known to burn at max pressure with a substantial decrees in temperature. So as soon as you change to a faster burning powder you can’t compare to the 4350 the standard load is using.
Federal says barrel life is comparable to standard loads. Time will tell
TIME does.tell a.lot..
but so do numbers and current tech in rifle making and materials especially some of the garbage off the shelf.
Standard 6.5 Creedmoor @ 62,000 psi @
2,500 – 3,000+ @ 1 barrel
versus
Standard 6.5 PRC @ 65,000 psi @ 1,100 – 1,500 @ 1 barrel
versus
Federal +Peak 6.5 Creedmoor @ 80,000 psi @ Estimated under 500 @ 1 barrel.
PHYSICS says there is a change.
and Barrels will change with it.
PROBLEM with corporate marketing....sales to generate money always comes first.
to answer your question...
7mm is ground.up development...
completely different animal—it is a brand-new, stand alone cartridge geometry built from scratch..
You cannot just buy a box of 7mm Backcountry and shoot it out of an old rifle. It requires a dedicated 7mm Backcountry chamber. Federal partnered directly with rifle manufacturers like Weatherby to build factory rifles with dimensions and barrel steel optimized to withstand that 80,000 psi plasma torch right out of the box.
verus
The 6.5 Creedmoor +PEAK line is designed as a pure ammunition play.
Don't buy a new rifle. Just buy our expensive steel ammunition, put it in your standard 6.5 Creedmoor, and get instant 6.5 PRC magnum velocities.
It utilizes the standard .473" bolt face and existing rifle chambers. This makes it highly enticing to the average guy who wants a massive velocity boost for a weekend hunting trip without spending $1,500 CAD on a new rifle setup.
The consumer takes on all the hidden costs of accelerated barrel burning on their existing rifle just to shoot a premium factory.
One is built.with finesse and safety...the other has pulled out all the stops!
TheMinusHuman
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chilliwack BC
For those curious. Here is the information I found about the cartridge specific to barrel wear.
how does federal use case design to prelong barrel life +11 Federal® uses different case design and material innovations across its product lines to enhance performance and protect your firearm's lifespan. Depending on the type of shooting you do, Federal specifically engineers cartridge cases to minimize gas cutting, reduce thermal wear, and contain high pressures.Federal targets case design and barrel life through a few core mechanisms:1. Peak Alloy Case Technology (Centerfire Rifles)In cartridges like the 7mm Backcountry and 6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK, Federal uses a patented, high-strength steel alloy rather than traditional brass.Extreme Pressure Containment: These steel cases can safely handle pressures up to 80,000 psi, allowing for magnum velocities using smaller powder charges and shorter barrels.Insulation Effect: Because the Peak Alloy case is incredibly strong, it acts as a containment vessel that insulates the barrel throat from the extreme heat of the burning powder, reducing the "plasma torch" gas cutting that eats away at rifling.No Case Growth: The steel cases exhibit significantly less stretch and growth than brass, which minimizes the throat erosion caused by escaping gases.
how does federal use case design to prelong barrel life +11 Federal® uses different case design and material innovations across its product lines to enhance performance and protect your firearm's lifespan. Depending on the type of shooting you do, Federal specifically engineers cartridge cases to minimize gas cutting, reduce thermal wear, and contain high pressures.Federal targets case design and barrel life through a few core mechanisms:1. Peak Alloy Case Technology (Centerfire Rifles)In cartridges like the 7mm Backcountry and 6.5mm Creedmoor +PEAK, Federal uses a patented, high-strength steel alloy rather than traditional brass.Extreme Pressure Containment: These steel cases can safely handle pressures up to 80,000 psi, allowing for magnum velocities using smaller powder charges and shorter barrels.Insulation Effect: Because the Peak Alloy case is incredibly strong, it acts as a containment vessel that insulates the barrel throat from the extreme heat of the burning powder, reducing the "plasma torch" gas cutting that eats away at rifling.No Case Growth: The steel cases exhibit significantly less stretch and growth than brass, which minimizes the throat erosion caused by escaping gases.
cptseawolf
CGN Regular
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Only time will tell on barrel life.
And it's not like federal would just make a cartridge that blows everyone's guns up.
Will be interesting to see more details as it comes out.
But as a military ammunition specialist (Ammunition Technical Officer) this stuff makes me nerd out.
And it's not like federal would just make a cartridge that blows everyone's guns up.
Will be interesting to see more details as it comes out.
But as a military ammunition specialist (Ammunition Technical Officer) this stuff makes me nerd out.
Me and that is only me, I don’t get it. People that wanted there 30-06 to shoot 200fps faster they bought a 300win mag…. I wonder what is the real reasoning behind that new 6.5cm, I mean I get it that you already have the rifle on hand… who owns only one rifle anyway!
I guess now they can say to everyone who said that everything the 6.5cm does the 6.5x55 did for over a 100 years shut the fyck up bltch… hahaha
I guess now they can say to everyone who said that everything the 6.5cm does the 6.5x55 did for over a 100 years shut the fyck up bltch… hahaha
TheMinusHuman
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chilliwack BC
I dunno man, I talked to the guy who designed the technology. These are smart people. I for one am very excited to try it.What a pile ofthere ! There gonna Tell you what You wanna hear
Estimated by who? You? Based on the ideal gas law? Care to share your math? Because I just ran some rough numbers and from what I'm seeing the PRC would actually have LOWER temps than the CM, when calculated for both peak pressure reached at 1.5" of barrel and 3" of barrel. Yet we KNOW the PRC is harder on barrels. Only if you assume max pressure is reached without the bullet leaving the case does the PRC have higher temps.
| PV=nRT | capacity | load | moles | pressure | Calculated Temp | ||
| 6.5 Creedmoor | 3.40 cm^3 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 62000psi | 1239c | ||
| 6.5 CM PEAK | 3.40 cm^3 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 80000psi | 1678c | ||
| 6.5 PRC | 4.665 cm^3 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 65000psi | 1280c | ||
| PRC PEAK | 4.665 cm^3 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 80000psi | 1639c | ||
| w/3" of barrel | 6.5 Creedmoor | 6.09 cm^3 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 62000psi | 2435 | |
| 6.5 CM PEAK | 6.09 cm^3 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 80000psi | 3221 | ||
| 6.5 PRC | 7.355 cm^3 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 65000psi | 2177 | ||
| PRC PEAK | 7.355 cm^3 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 80000psi | 2742 |
| w/1.5" barrel | 6.5 Creedmoor | 4.75 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 62000psi | 1839 | |
| 6.5 CM PEAK | 4.75 | 40 grains | 0.1156032 | 80000psi | 2452 | ||
| 6.5 PRC | 6.015 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 65000psi | 1730 | ||
| PRC PEAK | 6.015 | 56 grains | 0.1618534 | 80000psi | 2193 |
We KNOW PRC goes through barrels faster. So it seems pretty clear to me that Temp alone isn't the only thing to consider here.
Interestingly, the fictional PRC PEAK has lower Temps than the 6.5CM PEAK in all situations. Which one do you think would have longer barrel life in the real world?
(As a caveat the ideal gas law isn't at all ideal in this situation, but whatever, you mentioned it)
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AND.since you mantion numbers..where yours are .vaporware...since you mentioned it...
Ideal gas law is the fundamental physics...
framework used to explain internal ballistics, including Federal's high-pressure rounds.
that the physics..
to go further.....
Traditional magnums increase velocity by packing a massive amount of powder
into a giant casing (V). This produces high speed but generates massive heat (T)), which destroys barrels.Federal’s Peak Alloy Case Tech shrinks the volume (V) down to a standard short-action cartridge size. By burning a smaller, specialized powder charge inside a tighter space, they spike the Pressure (P) to an unprecedented 80,000+ psi. This achieves magnum-level velocity out of short barrels without generating the massive, flame-torching heat (T) of traditional overbore magnums.
other.phyics that apply...
The First Law of Thermodynamics (Energy Conservation),
Newton’s Second and Third Laws of Motion,
Hooke's Law of Elasticity,
Vieille’s Law : The Burning Rate Law of Propellants,
Hooke’s - Lame’s Equations for Thick-Walled Cylinders
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This statement seems to be the opposite of what you keep arguing? If it doesn't produce the "flame-torching heat of traditional overbore magnums" wouldn't that mean the PEAK CM should have longer barrel life than the PRC?
The phrase *without generating the massive, flame-torching heat *refers strictly to the total thermal mass (the total amount of powder burned). However, when you factor in the 80,000 PSI pressure spike, the physics flip.
soo ....
in pure internal ballistics, and then your skepticism is completely justified.
The breakdown of why a 6.5 Creedmoor +PEAK will actually have a shorter barrel life than a standard 6.5 PRC, despite burning less powder... less but FASTER.
PRC
achieves its velocity by burning a large volume of powder (~50+ grains) at a standard pressure of roughly 65,000 PSI. It acts like a large campfire: it outputs a large volume of heat over a longer duration, which steadily erodes the throat over roughly 1,100 to 1,500 rounds.
Federal
The +PEAK load uses a smaller volume of powder (~40+ grains), but compresses and detonates it at a violent 80,000 PSI. By compressing that gas into a tiny volume, the peak instantaneous temperature at the exact millisecond of ignition skyrockets.
The nuclear-level rebuttal from ballisticians relies on Vieille’s Law and gas dynamics.
When a propellant burns at 80,000 PSI, the gas is moving at extreme velocity the exact instant the bullet engraves into the rifling. At that microscopic window of time, the ultra-pressurized gas acts exactly like a high-velocity plasma torch. It forces intense heat into the molecular structure of the barrel steel, causing immediate micro-cracking (thermal checking).
Even though there is "less total powder," the intensity of the localized pressure blast strips away the throat steel at a much faster rate.
Less. powder; with different chemical and physical.engineerig...
Every grain of gun powder is coated in chemical deterrents,
plus
they are meticulously engineered physical shapes designed to control surface area
AND
process engineering (how it burns)
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Until anybody acquired enough peak ammo to burn a barrel and do an independent test, all we have is federals word that it doesn't burn barrels much faster than standard brass ammo.
Even then it's a moot point because you're going to buy 20 rounds of this, use 5 for sighting in, and maybe 5 more for hunting in a year.
When it's done for calibers like .300 blackout, barrel life even if cut in half would still be 5000 rounds and you'll get 308 performance.
With a 6.5prc you can't switch back to low pressure ammo to extend barrel life (unless you handload). All the pros none of the cons.
The 80k technology isn't a fad. It won't die. It'll become the new standard. An AR-15 in .300 blackout will match .308 velocities. A .308 AR-10 will reach magnum velocities. Only question is liability issues with backward compatibility on older rifles (as is with smokeless vs black powder to) and when Federal and/or other manufacturers will be able to produce enough to replace brass all together.
Even then it's a moot point because you're going to buy 20 rounds of this, use 5 for sighting in, and maybe 5 more for hunting in a year.
When it's done for calibers like .300 blackout, barrel life even if cut in half would still be 5000 rounds and you'll get 308 performance.
With a 6.5prc you can't switch back to low pressure ammo to extend barrel life (unless you handload). All the pros none of the cons.
The 80k technology isn't a fad. It won't die. It'll become the new standard. An AR-15 in .300 blackout will match .308 velocities. A .308 AR-10 will reach magnum velocities. Only question is liability issues with backward compatibility on older rifles (as is with smokeless vs black powder to) and when Federal and/or other manufacturers will be able to produce enough to replace brass all together.
