How to pull a round ball, after its center is pulled out...

[Murray 3-D]

My first flintlock was a Traditions Kentucky Rifle, I think I paid 550cad new for it back in the 2010s..(fully assembled! not even as the cheaper kit). Fit and finish was excellent on it, accuracy was excellent. The lock arguably wasnt even that bad considering its tiny size. Great to pull off the wall, dust off, load up and go hunting with. But when firing consecutive shots, thats when serious design flaws really started to show.

TONS of flashes in the pan, TONS of slow ignitions. Very stiff to load. Most beginners like myself pass it off as being *part of the Flinchlock experience*. Its only until one witnesses a normal flintlock firing that they then realize somethings terribly wrong with the Traditions models.

And that something is the breech geometry. Extremely prone to fowling, very hard to clean in the field. Honestly, flat out F'ing dangerous when you fully consider it and the far reaching implications of totally frustrated and desperate Black Powder beginners having to fiddle around out in the field with pumping 3f or 4f into fowled touchole liners, shouldering multiple hangfires or pulling balls. Maybe they even give up, pull the flint and drive home with a stoked barrel that they'll later address in the confinements of a suburban garage or basement lol.

Every Flintlock newcomer should do themselves a favor and skip the Traditions offering, buy a used Lyman, Pedersoli or basically any new or used American made kit gun from a reputable name. Its like going from PowerFist to Huskavarna.

 

[mckutzy]

I had a good flintlock from them.
It had overall good ignition and accuracy ect...

The thing however is that the lock has the frizzen screw, that threads from the back, so where the head is is in a counterbore and of course, that's where crap accumulates from firings...
It has been seized in there and I haven't been able to get it out... the head is stripped, and basically now.. I just need a gunsmith to carefully drill it out so I can make a pin to fit, from the back again instead of a screw.
Also, the main part to want of removing the screw, is that the flint has worn through the case hardening of the face of the frizzen, and I need to re shape and reharden it again.

other than that... my experience has been great.

 

[Licensed to kill]

I had a good flintlock from them.
It had overall good ignition and accuracy ect...

The thing however is that the lock has the frizzen screw, that threads from the back, so where the head is is in a counterbore and of course, that's where crap accumulates from firings...
It has been seized in there and I haven't been able to get it out... the head is stripped, and basically now.. I just need a gunsmith to carefully drill it out so I can make a pin to fit, from the back again instead of a screw.
Also, the main part to want of removing the screw, is that the flint has worn through the case hardening of the face of the frizzen, and I need to re shape and reharden it again.

other than that... my experience has been great.

Having the frizzen pin screw in from the back is common. You don’t need a “ gunsmith” to remove it ( in fact I would advise against it). Any good machine shop can mill that out in a few minutes and it will be perfect. While any gunsmith worth his salt will be able to do it but a machinist dies this sort of thing every day not once every 10 years AND good machine shops can be found pretty much anywhere. BTW, if the pin boss is blind, a pin won’t work as you won’t be able to remove it easily. Regardless, I would use a screw. Install it with copper coat or another anti-seize and you should be removing the lock every time you clean the gun so you can clean the inside as well as removing the frizzen pin to clean and lube.

 

[mckutzy]

Fare enough about the smith vs the machinist.... unforunatly, Ive found alot of shops dont often want to deal with strangers "gun" related stuff and rather not, citing liability or crap like that...

But in this case the pin would be passed through the back to the front of the lock to the front bridle.
Most ive seen have a brideled lock around the frizzen and screw outside to in... the head is easier to clean and less prone to fouling., that one there is the only one where it has been like this and after a few times the screw got messed up... thats with thorough proper maintenance.

 

[Licensed to kill]

Fare enough about the smith vs the machinist.... unforunatly, Ive found alot of shops dont often want to deal with strangers "gun" related stuff and rather not, citing liability or crap like that...

But in this case the pin would be passed through the back to the front of the lock to the front bridle.
Most ive seen have a brideled lock around the frizzen and screw outside to in... the head is easier to clean and less prone to fouling., that one there is the only one where it has been like this and after a few times the screw got messed up... thats with thorough proper maintenance.

How does a screw get “messed up” through “ thorough proper maintenance”. A big part of “proper maintenance” is useing proper hollow ground turn screws

 

[B_noser]

It should also be pointed out that there should not be any "crap" accumulating in lthe lock mortise if the lock to barrel fit as it should be. Routine maintenance should NOT require stripping the lock down or removal of the frizzen and, as Ltk has said, properly fitted screwdrivers should always be used.

 

[sean69]

But in this case the pin would be passed through the back to the front of the lock to the front bridle.
Most ive seen have a brideled lock around the frizzen and screw outside to in... the head is easier to clean and less prone to fouling., that one there is the only one where it has been like this and after a few times the screw got messed up... thats with thorough proper maintenance.

My inclination is that maybe you are overthinking this - you are obviously not new to the game - so apologies if I am reiterating crap you already know....

Fouling:
- should not be working its way inside the lock mortise as others have said, I am going to assume it is not and the fouling is external working it's way forward from the pan under the frizzen then into the gaps where the bolt passes through the frizzen and lock plate. (that would be normal)
- that bolt should never get so tight that you wind up mangling the head/slot, it does not need to be tight at all - it is captive between the lock plate and barrel when the lock is installed by design.
> get a bolt with a higher tolerance in the thread fitment (get a bolt blank and an adjustable threading die) - that is the only place where fouling could be causing the screw to seize
> address/examine how much you are tightening it during 'cleaning'

Cleaning:
- your process is your process, but I have never had to remove a frizzen for general cleaning - only ever for actual maintenance...
> get a small vevor ultra sonic cleaner drop the whole lock in, dry with heat gun, oil - done.
> before theU/S cleaner I just let them soak in a bucket of water for a few minutes before scrubbing with a toothbrush/heat gun/oil

Maintenance:
- like I said, that bolt does not need to be torqued down to 500ft/lbs .... not even tight.
> don't do that.

Fouling in the first place:
- yes - it will happen, the more you shoot in a session, the more fouling, yes I have had frizzens get 'sticky' enough that they actually stop the #### rather than snapping back (or forwards rather) only solution is a quick field clean and a drop of oil or two, however, you get (noticeably) less fouling buildup when you use the minimum priming charge at a finer granulation.
> 4f tends to burn completely in the pan, a powder with larger grain size tends to throw the grains around before they burn up (you can evidence this by looking at the pin hole burns in your shooting glasses ) use less, use finer.


My thoughts are you are about to over engineer a problem solved by an off the shelf part. i.e. get a better fitting bolt. - oh, and polish the living crap out of it where the frizzen bears on it....

 

[Licensed to kill]

It should also be pointed out that there should not be any "crap" accumulating in lthe lock mortise if the lock to barrel fit as it should be. Routine maintenance should NOT require stripping the lock down or removal of the frizzen and, as Ltk has said, properly fitted screwdrivers should always be used.

Fouling can’t cause issues with the frizzen by getting on the head (like you said this should never be able to happen in the first place) but gets into the hinge/pivot on the pin. This does not change whether the bolt goes in from the inside or outside. I always remove the frizzen when cleaning a lock donn be I can clean that pin/pivot point. Never thought of dropping the whole thing in a sonic cleaner or even a bucket of water. Good ideas, I will continue to disassemble and clean because I enjoy relaxing while cleaning guns.

 

[B_noser]

Some interesting comments regarding the frizzen binding due to exterior fouling from the pan flash, and I would not question anyone elses experience. Can only say that in over 50 years of shooting exclusively flint on the range, on woods walks and hunting, I have never had a frizzen get sticky. Perhaps I have just been lucky, or perhaps it is because, with only rare exceptions, I prime with 4F, and only 2 - 3 grains. Have never found a need to even partially strip a lock for routine cleaning. Remove the lock and scrub the exterior with a toothbrush and slightly warm water, blow or wipe dry, spray the exterior with WD40, paying particular attention to the frizzen pivot, and set it aside while the rifle is being cleaned. Blow and dab off the excess WD40, give a wipe to the inside surface of the bolster, give a dab of oil to the friction points if I think it is needed and reinstall. To each his own, but I believe excessive disassembly and reassembly only promotes wear, and the risk of damage. When I do install a frizzen, I use a light grease such as Lubriplate and, as Sean said, don't over tighten screws.

 

[sean69]

....Can only say that in over 50 years of shooting exclusively flint on the range, on woods walks and hunting, I have never had a frizzen get sticky. Perhaps I have just been lucky, or perhaps it is because, with only rare exceptions...

Quality of the lock - my made in India Brown Bess would get pretty gummed up - none of my other locks. also your priming charge - reinforces my point.

 

[Johnyy]

Don't lend buddy your Hawken

Yupp- sounds like 'buddy' f'd up his, then f'd up the op's.
With friends like this, who needs ... ~

 

[Licensed to kill]

Yupp- sounds like 'buddy' f'd up his, then f'd up the op's.
With friends like this, who needs ... ~

Using a 495 rather than a 490 wont f^%# up anything. Slightly tighter to load, that’s it. Some guys load such tight loads they need a mallet to short start and a steel or solid brass rod to ram it home as a matter of practice.

 

[Licensed to kill]

I have virtually zero experience with locks that come on factory entry level flintlocks. However, I do have a bit of experience with decent locks (L&R) and good locks ( Chambers). I don’t believe the “sticky frizzen” theory. What I believe is that the frizzen is not opening all the way due to a miss positioned flint, often when it gets short (which is why the issue develops as the day of shooting progresses) and stalls at the bottom of the frizzen before the frizzen kicks over. This issue can be exacerbated if the frizzen spring is not “tuned” to the frizzen foot. Regarding removing the frizzen for general cleaning, I remove the frizzen every time I clean a flintlock gun. While my reasoning is unproven by me, to my way of thinking you can not over clean black powder residue and residue left can become very problematic. So, my reasoning is simple, I simply can not get all the fouling out of the frizzen hinge without removing the frizzen. If that hinge never gets properly cleaned, especially if you park your guns for long periods, you may find that not removing the frizzen is no longer a choice. At any rate, I like to tinker snd enjoy doing a strip clean on my flintlocks so removing the frizzen to ensure the pin is clean is not a burden for me, it’s part of the process. Now, I had never considered the sonic cleaner idea. It’s not for me because I enjoy dong a strip clean but the idea sounds great for those looking for expediency, especially if you already have one.

 

[B_noser]

Quality of the lock - my made in India Brown Bess would get pretty gummed up

Good point! All of my flint locks are Siler (Bud Siler) Chambers, Kibler, Davis and there might be an L&R in there. Had a Pedersoli Bess, but only used it in reenactments. The Pedersoli didn't measure up to the NA-made locks, but never gave me any problems to speak of.
I would strongly advise anyone purchasing a flinter to invest in one having a quality North American made lock. You can't beat a Kibler and the Chambers are a very close second. I understand Chambers is transitioning to CNC machining, so will likely be neck in neck with Kibler. Have seen the frustration experienced by folks with imported flinters and believe it needlessly turns many off on flinters.

 

[blacklittledog]

20 plus years ago I had a Safari Arms 58 cal double rifle , I shot that thing a lot practiced all summer shooting across a small lake, when you hit a deer with a 58 cal with a mini , a hole the size of your thumb in and out. they do not walk more than 3 steps... I was on a moose hunt in the Interlake area of Manitoba brought the double rifle and my first BPCR a Martini 577/450 had .457 500 gr lee bullets paper patched up to fit..LOL
the double rifle was my main gun for the hunt, after the day was done I would fire off the charge to have a fresh load the next day. I would clean the barrels every day until... my cleaning jag with patch pulled off the ram rod down in the barrel.. now what! buddy was 10 yrs older more experience suggesting pulling the nipple and stuffing 3fg in there... worked like a charm... never use a wood ram rod as a cleaning rod..

Hey, I've got that same rifle! Love that thing, and it's a real head turner at the range.

 

[cdnrokon]

Hey, I've got that same rifle! Love that thing, and it's a real head turner at the range.

Very accurate rifle, I purchased mine used and the PO had it drilled and tapped for scope down the centre rib. I removed the scope mount and just used the express sights.. good for me out to 200 yds. First kill was a big fat doe , last light approx 150-160 yds broadside shot. open farm field ..I still can hear that big mini hit... I shot a lot of deer with that rifle.

 

[sean69]

Good point! All of my flint locks are Siler (Bud Siler) Chambers, Kibler, Davis and there might be an L&R in there. Had a Pedersoli Bess, but only used it in reenactments. The Pedersoli didn't measure up to the NA-made locks, but never gave me any problems to speak of.
I would strongly advise anyone purchasing a flinter to invest in one having a quality North American made lock. You can't beat a Kibler and the Chambers are a very close second. I understand Chambers is transitioning to CNC machining, so will likely be neck in neck with Kibler. Have seen the frustration experienced by folks with imported flinters and believe it needlessly turns many off on flinters.

I have several Roller locks plus a Bill Large flintlock built using a roller lockplate ...

 

[mooncoon2]

going back to the original question of how to remove a stuck ball, one major nuisance is if the gun does not have a recessed breach plug because that allows the ball to block the vent or the nipple channel. A friend brought me two flinters reccently that were dryballed (one by him and one by a person he lent a gun to).
both gun had the vent blocked by the ball, neither gun could be debreached and I was sure that there was no powder in either. My ball puller would not pull the trade gun ball and the other was a 32 cal. I ended up heating area of the barrel where the ball was then smacking the barrel, muzzle down on my chopping block; both cases the melted lead came out. You only have to heat the barrel to about 700F to melt the ball. Also make sure the barrel is pointed in a safe direction just in case the "empty" gun is not.

cheers mooncoon

 

[bearhunter]

Second on removing nipple and trickling 3fg down the hole

I would fill it with "the finest black powder you can find," preferably suitable for pistols.

 

[Licensed to kill]

going back to the original question of how to remove a stuck ball, one major nuisance is if the gun does not have a recessed breach plug because that allows the ball to block the vent or the nipple channel. A friend brought me two flinters reccently that were dryballed (one by him and one by a person he lent a gun to).
both gun had the vent blocked by the ball, neither gun could be debreached and I was sure that there was no powder in either. My ball puller would not pull the trade gun ball and the other was a 32 cal. I ended up heating area of the barrel where the ball was then smacking the barrel, muzzle down on my chopping block; both cases the melted lead came out. You only have to heat the barrel to about 700F to melt the ball. Also make sure the barrel is pointed in a safe direction just in case the "empty" gun is not.

cheers mooncoon

I considered that but then you might have some sever lead fouling to clean out. Did all the lead run out or did it leave some along the length of the bore?