The 30-06 is a better hunting round. Nobody will go hunting moose with a .308 but many shooter still go with the 30-06 specially with the 180-200 grain bullet. You are lucky to get 2700 hundred feet of energy with the right handload combination in .308 but it is easy to get 3200 in the 30.06. This is a BIG difference. I own rifle in those two calibers and the 30-06 is as accurate as the .308. For hunting - 30-06 is the round to choose between the two.
30-06 vs 308 ballistics and energy
- Thread starter krchov
- Start date
i guess i'm nobody-i use 308/180 all the time for everything- i get 2610 out of a 20 inch or so savage 99, and its taken more than its fair share for game( and that includes mr ugly) over the years from the back of a horse- you don't want a bolt gun up here as you have no time to set up your shot- the only thing i won't use the 180 load is for big bears, then i skip right over the 06 and go straight to the 338 win mag- granted , the 06 has more room at the top end of the spectrum, bullet wise, but you also begin to lose in velocity- and as far as the numbers go the mpbr for the 308/180 is 267 yards, the 06 is 274- i can sneak up 10 yards or closer if need be- with the RIGHT HORSE i can get a lot closer - something about the smell of the horse seems to confuse game and they don't recognise it as much of a threat as a man hunting alone- plus, you've got a "buddy" to carry out your meat- just rig a travois and you're set
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mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
True - but really these days how much versatility do you really need? I don't know what he's planning on doing with his gun, but if it's just hunting then modern bullets and loads will kill anything in this country with either gun, hands down.
I prefer the 30-06 myself but i'd sure not turn down a 308 either, there's just not enough difference between them at practical hunting ranges to matter as far as killing power, and the 308 ammo costs less so you can practice more
If you handload you get much better performance out of the 30-06 with 180 grain bullets and up, and if you don't Hornady's Light Magnum loads in the 06 will give you 300 Win Mag performance. For those that like the extra performance and insurance heavier bullets deliver the 06 gets the nod. The 06 and 308 are both good cartridges.
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The .308 Win.was designed as a military cartridge to work in full automatic firearms and is relatively short for its diameter I presume to minimize jamming in rapidly oscillating actions.
The .30-06 was used extensively in FA weapons (BAR and 1919 GPMP to name a couple) and worked very well - in fact the only time that I've seen the 1919 jam was when it was re-fitted to 7.62x51, as the cartridge is no longer fitted to the length of the action. If you look at a .50 BMG round you will notice it's similarity to the '06 as it is dimensionally almost a scale copy of the '06. I think that JMB knew when he was on to a good thing...
The .30-06 Springfield is somewhat longer in comparison with its diameter & looks like it might have more of a tendency to bind in semi or full automatic actions.
Not when properly maintained and designed for the round in question...
My experience:
I had a Remington 742 Woodsmaster in .30-06 Springfield back in the 1970's that I was glad to dump because of jamming & feed problems.
More likely the gun than the round in question. One 742 in '06 and one 7400 in .308 is statistically insignificant...
Most of the police tactical sniper rifles are Remington Model 700's in .308 Win. and are usually topped with a tactically configured 3.5 - 10x Leupold scope? This combination is almost "industry standard".
Many LE marksmen do the "transfer of skills" thing over from the mil side and bring their knowledge and preferences with them. The fact is that there has been far more development and refinement of the .308 in the last 40 years due to it's increased usage by the military and as a result we se better results in its usage - to say nothing of the fact that it fits into a smaller and neater action. And every once in awhile (depending upon who you kow) you might come across a case or two of M118LR - not that I know anyting about that sort of thing...
The average LE sniper shot is something like 78 meters, froma low of 7 or 8 (one time) to a long range of over 200 (still fairly scarce) so the minor added energy of the '06 is simply not needed (and with modern propellants probablydoesn't exist). Propellant development between the time the '06 was developed and when the .308 came on-line were such that more could be accomplished with less. Keep in mind that the '03 followed by the '06 were adopted by the US when America was a "nation of riflemen", much as Canada was back inthe day, and volley fire by company was fairly common still (google "German paratroopers on Crete")...
I've yet to see one made in .30-06 Spring.
I have...
Maybe the cops know something we don't.
Probably...
The .30-06 was used extensively in FA weapons (BAR and 1919 GPMP to name a couple) and worked very well - in fact the only time that I've seen the 1919 jam was when it was re-fitted to 7.62x51, as the cartridge is no longer fitted to the length of the action. If you look at a .50 BMG round you will notice it's similarity to the '06 as it is dimensionally almost a scale copy of the '06. I think that JMB knew when he was on to a good thing...
The .30-06 Springfield is somewhat longer in comparison with its diameter & looks like it might have more of a tendency to bind in semi or full automatic actions.
Not when properly maintained and designed for the round in question...
My experience:
I had a Remington 742 Woodsmaster in .30-06 Springfield back in the 1970's that I was glad to dump because of jamming & feed problems.
More likely the gun than the round in question. One 742 in '06 and one 7400 in .308 is statistically insignificant...
Most of the police tactical sniper rifles are Remington Model 700's in .308 Win. and are usually topped with a tactically configured 3.5 - 10x Leupold scope? This combination is almost "industry standard".
Many LE marksmen do the "transfer of skills" thing over from the mil side and bring their knowledge and preferences with them. The fact is that there has been far more development and refinement of the .308 in the last 40 years due to it's increased usage by the military and as a result we se better results in its usage - to say nothing of the fact that it fits into a smaller and neater action. And every once in awhile (depending upon who you kow) you might come across a case or two of M118LR - not that I know anyting about that sort of thing...
The average LE sniper shot is something like 78 meters, froma low of 7 or 8 (one time) to a long range of over 200 (still fairly scarce) so the minor added energy of the '06 is simply not needed (and with modern propellants probablydoesn't exist). Propellant development between the time the '06 was developed and when the .308 came on-line were such that more could be accomplished with less. Keep in mind that the '03 followed by the '06 were adopted by the US when America was a "nation of riflemen", much as Canada was back inthe day, and volley fire by company was fairly common still (google "German paratroopers on Crete")...
I've yet to see one made in .30-06 Spring.
I have...
Maybe the cops know something we don't.
Probably...
- Location
- calgary alberta
HUH???
3200FPS with a 200 gr bullet out of an 06? please pass the shovel.
Balisticly the 2 calibers are nearly identical when loaded with the same bullet.
Using the same powder however will not be as efficient in the 308.
I shoot 190 gr SMKs out of my 308 and get 2670 fps, which will kill ANY moose.
^^^yeah, but why shoot a .308 when the 7mm/08 just does everything soooo much better?
Because last time I looked, you couldn't buy 1,000 7mm bullets for reloading for $120. (or even $79 a thousand if you don't mind the relatively poor accuracy of Frontier CMJ's - they still work great for banging steel targets at the range).
Side note - the velocity difference between a 308 and a 30-06 is utterly insignificant until you reach distances beyond which most of us would call 'ethical' for shooting at big game.
Let's put it in context - very few people would argue that a 30-30 wasn't an adequate big game cartridge inside 100 yards (and if they did, there's a mountain of evidence from the field that will contradict them). Maybe not 'ideal', or 'great', or even 'good', but certainly, 'adequate'.
Newsflash - if I stuff a 150 grain Nosler AccuBond in my 308 winchester, load it to the gills with Varget or R15 - it will hit approximately as hard at 500 yards as the 30-30 does at 100 yards. 500 yards is well beyond the range I would consider 'ethical' for shooting at game, even if your sniper skills are very good - why are you taking even a small chance on wounding one, when you could no doubt cut that distance in half without spooking the animal?
In other words - I say that it's all a moot point - grab a 308, 30-06, 7mag, 270, 300 mag, 7-08, or anything even vaguely in that ballpark, and go hunting! If you shoot a critter (even a moose) and it doesn't die in very short order, you need to learn how to shoot and where to place the shot on the animal - it wasn't the caliber that was the problem.
Now back to your regular scheduled debate.
Let's put it in context - very few people would argue that a 30-30 wasn't an adequate big game cartridge inside 100 yards (and if they did, there's a mountain of evidence from the field that will contradict them). Maybe not 'ideal', or 'great', or even 'good', but certainly, 'adequate'.
Newsflash - if I stuff a 150 grain Nosler AccuBond in my 308 winchester, load it to the gills with Varget or R15 - it will hit approximately as hard at 500 yards as the 30-30 does at 100 yards. 500 yards is well beyond the range I would consider 'ethical' for shooting at game, even if your sniper skills are very good - why are you taking even a small chance on wounding one, when you could no doubt cut that distance in half without spooking the animal?
In other words - I say that it's all a moot point - grab a 308, 30-06, 7mag, 270, 300 mag, 7-08, or anything even vaguely in that ballpark, and go hunting! If you shoot a critter (even a moose) and it doesn't die in very short order, you need to learn how to shoot and where to place the shot on the animal - it wasn't the caliber that was the problem.
Now back to your regular scheduled debate.
Red foreman
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- interior b.c.
I own both calibre's,when I go hunting for moose,I never think jeez I better bring the 30-06 because that little ole 308 will never do the job.I grab whichever one I feel like hunting with.This season more often than not the 308 got the nod,not because it's a better cal but because I'm really digging the savage 99's these days.In other words I'd feel comfortable shooting any moose(the biggest animal I'll ever likely shoot) with either.
Uh! Hemmmmm!Beg to disagree.
Shot a cow moose & 2 calves in Northern Ontario this fall with a Remington Model 7 (18.5" barrel) in...... you guessed it..........308 Win., using Federal "High Energy" 180 grain (Nosler Partition) factory loads.
NO SH!T !!!!
3 moose..........4 shots (1 knock down + 1 kill shot for the cow)
They looked dead to me because they didn't even blink while we were dressing them out.
I have two .300 Win. Mag. rifles (Ruger M77, T/C Icon) but prefer to carry the little Model 7 (topped by 2 - 7x Leupold scope) when I'm walking a ways.
I use the 300's for the stands & ground blinds.
Life Memberships: NRA, GOA, CSSA, NFA, OFAH
CCW Permits: Utah, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Maine
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Maybe the cops just made a decision so they would not have to put up with hair splitting or how many angels can dance the head of a pin discussions
No not FPS but Ft-Lbs or energy : this is the power factor - Hitting power is the BIG difference
huh huh huh
Jean
Hitting power is the BIG difference huh huh huh
Jean
HUH???
3200FPS with a 200 gr bullet out of an 06? please pass the shovel.
Balisticly the 2 calibers are nearly identical when loaded with the same bullet.
Using the same powder however will not be as efficient in the 308.
I shoot 190 gr SMKs out of my 308 and get 2670 fps, which will kill ANY moose.
Maybe the cops just made a decision so they would not have to put up with hair splitting or how many angels can dance the head of a pin discussions
Yep the cop concern are definitely not the moose concern
A Moose weight 1000 pounds + a man 200 Where do you get this stuff? Tell that to all those Newfie moose in heaven
Yep - only in newfie land
HUH???
3200FPS with a 200 gr bullet out of an 06? please pass the shovel.
Don't be too quick to condemn peoples statements. Firstly, He didn't say FPS, he said, Foot Pounds of Energy.
A good book on the issues is, Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter, by Bob Hagel.
John Nosler, President, Nosler Bullets, had this to say about the book; "The best book I have ever read on the subject. Every hunter and shooter should read it. ----"
On giving 30-06 loads, Hagel gives the following static information. Rifle, Sako Finnbear, 24 inch barrel, temperature 70 degrees F., WW brass, Federal 210 primers.
XX grains of Norma 205 powder, bullet, 220 grain Hornady SP RN.
Velocity-- 2650 fps.
Using the standard formula for arriving at foot pounds of energy, (V squared, divided by 450240, times bullet weight) I came up with 3431 foot pounds of energy.
XX grains of Norma 205, 200 grain Speer SP Ptd. bullet, velocity, 2816.
This calculates to 3522 foot pounds of energy.
As a side issue, did someone on these threads say something about "modern" powders, and what they could do??
Yep - it does not mean it is enough gun - Cree native shoot moose and cariboo with .223 - it does not mean it is enough gun. - they just keep shooting until they go down - seen it.
Your moose must be smaller out there
Your moose must be smaller out there
Beg to disagree.
Shot a cow moose & 2 calves in Northern Ontario this fall with a Remington Model 7 (18.5" barrel) in...... you guessed it..........308 Win., using Federal "High Energy" 180 grain (Nosler Partition) factory loads.
NO SH!T !!!!
3 moose..........4 shots (1 knock down + 1 kill shot for the cow)
They looked dead to me because they didn't even blink while we were dressing them out.
I have two .300 Win. Mag. rifles (Ruger M77, T/C Icon) but prefer to carry the little Model 7 (topped by 2 - 7x Leupold scope) when I'm walking a ways.
I use the 300's for the stands & ground blinds.
Life Memberships: NRA, GOA, CSSA, NFA, OFAH
CCW Permits: Utah, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Maine
No not FPS but Ft-Lbs or energy : this is the power factor -
Actually, that is not correct - once you have crossed the velocity/ft-lbs threshold where you have enough ft-lbs to drive a bullet of the given diameter and weight cleanly through the chest cavity of your target, adding more ft-lbs does approximately zero in terms of 'hitting power' - either bullet is going to make a hole of exactly the same size that goes clean through the animal, and is going to transfer the same amount of energy on the way through (the fact that one may exit the far side of the animal with more retained energy is irrelevant to the animal).
In this case - both the 30-06 and the 308 (suitably loaded with heavy-ish controlled expansion bullets) will accomplish this task, even on critters the size of a moose.
Once you have enough energy to cross the 'pass through threshold' (for lack of a better term for it) - if you want more 'hitting power', you need a larger diameter bullet, which will thus allow you to transfer more of the available energy to the critter as it passes through it's innards. Simply driving a bullet of the same diameter a bit faster does you no good at all.
Yep - it does not mean it is enough gun - Cree native shoot moose and cariboo with .223 - it does not mean it is enough gun. - they just keep shooting until they go down - seen it.
Your moose must be smaller out there
Not enough gun.
So a 165gr bullet at 2850fps ('06) will do exactly what, that a 165gr bullet at 2750fps (.308) won't?
I don't know how anyone killed moose before they had SuperDuperUltra Magnums.
