what is the different ???
- Thread starter cougar3006
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Pattern makes no difference with barrel length..within reason of course. Pattern is controlled by the choke. Shotgun powder, UNLIKE RIFLE POWDER burns completely in about 14" of barrel. Steel shotgun loads take a bit more barrel to completely burn but the velocity difference between a 20" and 30" barrel is pretty insignificant and pattern is controlled by choke only.
What is your point? I am not the author of post #28. That is Amphibious! He has got me on ignor
I do not mind if you go and argue with him. Probably get you on ignor as well
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Granted, many of the factors being discussed have little to do with shot patterns, but I wouldn't go that far. When felt wads were prominent, chokes were the greatest determining factor, no doubt. In the age of the plastic shot cup, however, things get a bit murky.
Using a cylinder bore barrel and the right shot cup, it's possible to achieve patterns similar to what you'd experience with a full choked barrel. At the other end of the spectrum, there are "spreader" cups designed specifically to produce open patterns through full chokes.
None of this (and many of the previous discussions) don't offer much to someone trying to anticipate the performance they can expect from a gun they've yet to buy. But, once you have the gun in hand, there's no substitute for patterning the individual chokes at a variety of distances with a selection of loads.
I was confining my comments to good old off the shelf ammo and was talking in general terms but there are always obscure references to the contrary of the accepted norm. Your examples do nothing to contradict what I said.....just that there are ways to circumvent typical choke performance. The fact stands that barrel length in say barrels 20-30 inches has no bearing on pattern.........getting back to the original question of course
My comments did indeed offer a lot on insight to someone speculating on the performance they could expect from various barrel lengths where this discussion began. Of course patterning is always a must but that doesn't change the fact that barrel length in the 20-30 inch range has no bearing on pattern and that there is minimal velocity difference after 14".......
Just to refresh your memory on the original question......
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I hadn't lost sight of the original question (in fact I referred to it).
I agree with your comments on barrel length, especially as they apply to a 2" difference on shotgun barrels over 20 inches in length.
While I may have weakened my point by describing the two extremes, it applies equally to off the shelf ammo. I've had occasion to extensively pattern several shotguns with a variety of common commercial loads. Without exception, there were surprise results mixed in with what might have been the expectation.
I apologize for not pursuing those exceptions more vigorously. At the time, it was sufficient to note the difference in performance. In the light of this discussion, it would have been useful to research exactly what shot cups are used in the loads tested. It could be that some manufacturers use any serviceable shot cup that is available, that sometimes they have to make compromises due to availability, or that shot cups are selected based of the intended uses for each brand/variant of shells.
One thing is clear: Off the shelf shells can and often do perform much differently through the same gun/choke/barrel. I was not implying that specialty shells are somehow relevant to the performance of commonly available commercial loads.
I agree with your comments on barrel length, especially as they apply to a 2" difference on shotgun barrels over 20 inches in length.
While I may have weakened my point by describing the two extremes, it applies equally to off the shelf ammo. I've had occasion to extensively pattern several shotguns with a variety of common commercial loads. Without exception, there were surprise results mixed in with what might have been the expectation.
I apologize for not pursuing those exceptions more vigorously. At the time, it was sufficient to note the difference in performance. In the light of this discussion, it would have been useful to research exactly what shot cups are used in the loads tested. It could be that some manufacturers use any serviceable shot cup that is available, that sometimes they have to make compromises due to availability, or that shot cups are selected based of the intended uses for each brand/variant of shells.
One thing is clear: Off the shelf shells can and often do perform much differently through the same gun/choke/barrel. I was not implying that specialty shells are somehow relevant to the performance of commonly available commercial loads.
No question but it still has nothing to do with barrel length, as was posed in the original question.
And I agree with you but it had nothing to do...speaking in general terms, with the difference in barrel length and everythiong to do with the individual characterisics of each gun. You seem to have trouble speaking in broad, generally accepted facts which is al I was referring to. Of course each gun and brand of ammo is unique but that doesn't change the generalization that the 2" of barrel difference described in the original questions wouldn't make a hill of beans difference in pattern or velocity. Can we move on now.....
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Considering the original question was the diffeerence between 26 and 28 inches....definitely not.
No Crowka, I am not agreeing with what you say that Remington is saying. I am agreeing with what stubblejumper said in post 47 and what he previously said in post 3. I think that for all practical purposes that stubblejumper best answered the original poster’s question as to the difference between 28 and 26.
I do not know what stubblejumper thinks about what you say Remington is saying? I do know that just because I agree with stubblejumper, it is not a certainty that he agrees with everything I say? I do not think there is a certainty that we both therefore must agree with what you say Remington is saying?
I think that Remington and other companies as well manipulate the truth when marketing. Liar may seem a little bit harsh but that is what I think. If for some reason you think that Remington somehow supports my argument and therefore I must support what you say Remington says, you are in error.
You said Remington states that 21" barrel and a 30" barrel both shoot the same distance with the same choke constriction.
Not knowing or caring what Remington actually said I am sure that shot from a 21 and a 30 inch tube might be shot or flung close to the same distance. How far they can be shot or flung is not the issue here. It is pattern or how many killing shots within a certain area which is the issue. Choke by its very nature is a force or collision with part of the shot charge and indirectly with all of the shot charge. Where or at what speed the shot charge encounters that collision will make a difference. Heck, there are longer tubes designed to control that collision.
My position? Difference between 28 and 26? Not a biggie! and not because Remington said it!
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I should explain my liars label that I put on Remington. Not just Remington but most of the ammo manufacturs. In the past advertised 3200 f.p.s. was found to be 2950 f.p.s. So now Remington is marrketing shorter barrels, I have no problem believing that they are doing a little creative marketing. 21 just as good as a 30 to me is the same as 2950 is just as good as 3200 Maybe this time they are telling the truth or maybe Remington never really said that in exactly those words? I do not really care.
PS A while back someone posted a video of some fellow shooting a shortie shotty, or is that shooty into the night sky. All the belching flames that came out of the muzzle, suggest that there was one hell of a lot of powder that was still burning after the muzzle.
Maybe this time they are telling the truth or maybe Remington never really said that in exactly those words? I do not really care.PS A while back someone posted a video of some fellow shooting a shortie shotty, or is that shooty into the night sky. All the belching flames that came out of the muzzle, suggest that there was one hell of a lot of powder that was still burning after the muzzle.
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You said:
Twice in this quote, you claim that pattern is controlled by choke only. It's not broad, generally accepted facts I have problems with, it's misinformation that's the problem. Read Michael McIntosh's "A. H. Fox, The finest gun in the World". In chapter 15, he describes the development of the Super Fox. Bert Becker's talent for boring tubes, combined with John Olin's revolutionary work with shot strings redefined shot patterns. Everything they learned is in direct contradiction to your statements.
John Olin's work included the realization that shot deformation has a major impact on patterns. Harder shot, therefore, is less susceptible to deformation. He also experimented with slower burning powders. Bert Becker's greatest talent was boring barrels. The best patterns of any shotgun tested were achieved with his overbored barrels. Strangely, neither of them were concerned with chokes. Forgive me if I choose to believe them.
Now we can move on...
So you're saying that all other things being equal that pattern is controlled by barrel length and that all other things being equal that a 2" barrel difference would cause different patterns???????? Please read the "all other things being equal"...........
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Hardly. Barrel length is a factor, but we agree completely that 2" makes little difference to pattern. Length is important for a host of entirely different reasons not pertaining to pattern (balance, inertia, space available to swing).
Patterns are influenced by numerous factors, though, and the choke only statement went well beyond a constructive generalization or simplification, IMO. There's so much more to it than that. No offense intended. Most people think as you do (or did) because they're not in the trade. Not that I am either. But, Ansley Fox was a champion trap shooter and many other things as well. His lifelong preoccupation was with quality and he was surrounded by the best engineers and craftsmen. We can all learn from their work. I certainly did.
Patterns are influenced by numerous factors, though, and the choke only statement went well beyond a constructive generalization or simplification, IMO. There's so much more to it than that. No offense intended. Most people think as you do (or did) because they're not in the trade. Not that I am either. But, Ansley Fox was a champion trap shooter and many other things as well. His lifelong preoccupation was with quality and he was surrounded by the best engineers and craftsmen. We can all learn from their work. I certainly did.
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The answer "no" applies only to the "all other things being equal" statement that you asked about.
The OP was asking for information pertaining to 26" barrels vs. 28" barrels and a secondary question, or a sort of a guess, about its possible influence on patterns. Inasmuch as the barrel length defines the distance between the forcing cones and the chokes, and given that shot oscillates as it travels down the barrel, the state of the shot stream as it enters the chokes is somewhat influenced by the length of the barrel. You'd have to experiment with the wavelength of the oscillations to determine if the optimum length is plus or minus however many millimeters.
The answer the OP was looking for and that which is needed is not that 2" doesn't likely do anything to the pattern. What he wants to know is what difference does it make. Stuff like:
I don't recall the whole thread anymore and I can't tell you if other posters covered the question. As you can see, I understood the original question differently than you did. I wasn't trying to answer it so much as clearing the air about the pattern thing in general. Still, patterning and it's relationship to other factors was obviously on the OP's mind. I'd imagine his question has been answered by now and he probably has some new ones.
The OP was asking for information pertaining to 26" barrels vs. 28" barrels and a secondary question, or a sort of a guess, about its possible influence on patterns. Inasmuch as the barrel length defines the distance between the forcing cones and the chokes, and given that shot oscillates as it travels down the barrel, the state of the shot stream as it enters the chokes is somewhat influenced by the length of the barrel. You'd have to experiment with the wavelength of the oscillations to determine if the optimum length is plus or minus however many millimeters.
The answer the OP was looking for and that which is needed is not that 2" doesn't likely do anything to the pattern. What he wants to know is what difference does it make. Stuff like:
- shorter barrels are lighter and balance better on a light gun
- shorter barrels are easier to swing in dense bush
- shorter barrels generate less inertia, so they make for a "livelier" gun for fast flushing birds or sporting clays
- longer barrels provide a better sight plane
- longer barrels maintain more inertia, so they are less lively and tend to swing more smoothly (desireable for trap shooting)
- longer barrels weigh more and, therefore, balance better on heavier guns
- etc.
I don't recall the whole thread anymore and I can't tell you if other posters covered the question. As you can see, I understood the original question differently than you did. I wasn't trying to answer it so much as clearing the air about the pattern thing in general. Still, patterning and it's relationship to other factors was obviously on the OP's mind. I'd imagine his question has been answered by now and he probably has some new ones.
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