current issue RCMP pistol

Questar said:
I suspect you have no idea just how insensitive.
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I originally wrote: "Would this be an issue with this pistol or perhaps the officer was returning fire with one hand and did not have a strong enough grip"

I was not trying to imply the officer had a weak grip, rather, due to the circumstances he had to return fire under, possibly with one hand and the fact he had already been hit would have caused anyone not to have a firm grip (if that is what caused the stovepipe).

I was not trying to be disrespectful to the officer, rather just asking a question about the pistol that the thread was about.
 
GROUP HUG FOR EVERYONE !!!

I have shot a couple of the different officers 5946's and yes the trigger pull is long but what I found is there is not much stacking.... it is one long smooth pull. just wish the trigger reset was smaller.
 
wicked_police said:
Then I will respectfully bow out. Obviously I'm out of my element here. Years of instructing firearms(both basic and tactical), as well as being a Distinguished Master shooter, cannot compare with your skill set.
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Not trying to step on your shoes,.or insult you. I have shot with a GM PPC who is still an RCMP officer and I was impressed. SS. JG.Richard. He was a very decent shooter. You are talking about qualification and instruction. You vented towards me and assumed I was talking out of my ass. I like to think I have some experience. You don't know me,.I don't know you. Sorry to offend. Maybe we will get to shoot together some day at LE event. :bigHug:
 
Westicle said:
GROUP HUG FOR EVERYONE !!!

I have shot a couple of the different officers 5946's and yes the trigger pull is long but what I found is there is not much stacking.... it is one long smooth pull. just wish the trigger reset was smaller.
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We need a group just to hug you Wes! :D

I've found the triggers on the guns very inconsistent. I had about 35 that I issued to the guys in the unit I was training in BC, and most had a gritty, rough trigger. After a few thousand rounds they got a bit better, but weren't what I would call smooth.

And it's the same at work here. We have about 40 that we issue to candidates on course, and while there are a few with decently smooth triggers, they aren't all like that.

Now, 40 guns out of about 20k + in the organization is definitely not a good sample size, but it's what I've experienced.
 
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maurice said:
Sorry to offend. Maybe we will get to shoot together some day at LE event. :bigHug:
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There's very few things that offend or insult me on the internet. So no worries

And you're right. We don't know each other, backgrounds, skill level, etc. So my apologies for any off-handed remarks to you as well.
 
Westicle said:
GROUP HUG FOR EVERYONE !!!

I have shot a couple of the different officers 5946's and yes the trigger pull is long but what I found is there is not much stacking.... it is one long smooth pull. just wish the trigger reset was smaller.
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I haven't shot a 5946 but I have the PX4 DA, the trigger pull is 10 pounds and the reset is very long. I can't see why police couldn't have a DA/SA. A nice long hard pull for the first shot but the rest should be lighter/shorter pulls. The reason for the long hard pull is to prevent accidental discharges, I can't see that being relevant to the subsequent shots. But I am no expert:)

I think CSC got it right with the HK. Maybe all federal departments should get an HK and be done with it.
 
KyleM said:
Yadda yadda. There's an awful lot of recreational shooters that can't hit a pop can at 15 metres. Besides which, the police training programs across the country train to A) win a gunfight and B) optimize for interior room and traffic stop distances. Pop cans are much smaller than COM and therefore not a realistic benchmark, and 15 meters is well beyond the average police gunfight range.
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Actually, I'd beg to differ. Most of the people who take the time to go through the trouble to obtain their RPAL, ATT's, invest in handguns and the costly ammo that goes with them, usually are much more proficient some of those in police/military. I know of mounties who despise their service piece and apart from duty use, only use it to qualify and that's it. You cannot be proficient in shooting only once or twice a year. I don't care where 'most' instances happen. All police should have to qualify - and qualify often, up to 20-25m with their sidearm. It's only practice, for God's sake, it's not like it's asking 'em to give their kidneys! If my profession involved the possible use of a firearm, I would want to be as proficient as I could be, for myself and for others.

A popcan at 15m is a pretty big target. I feel that it takes more than once or twice a year to get a good feel for the firearm and become as proficient as possible.
 
BlackWatch said:
I haven't shot a 5946 but I have the PX4 DA, the trigger pull is 10 pounds and the reset is very long. I can't see why police couldn't have a DA/SA. A nice long hard pull for the first shot but the rest should be lighter/shorter pulls. The reason for the long hard pull is to prevent accidental discharges, I can't see that being relevant to the subsequent shots. But I am no expert:)

I think CSC got it right with the HK. Maybe all federal departments should get an HK and be done with it.
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Yes,..finally. CSC is coming into this century with the HK P2000. It is going to be the 9mm DAO (I was pulling for the LEM, but not 100% the procurement guy from NHQ got it right in his description).
I have the submission I put forth which describes the requirements and why I would choose either the S & W M&P,..or the HK P2000. I honestly thought they would go with the cheaper M&P. I thought the HK would be cheaper in the long run,..as HK is a proven platform. I am not an instructor or team member, but I used the HK for 3 years prior in competition, and new the platform well. Good enough for commendation letter on my file;)
 
wicked_police said:
There's very few things that offend or insult me on the internet. So no worries

And you're right. We don't know each other, backgrounds, skill level, etc. So my apologies for any off-handed remarks to you as well.
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I can feel the love:adult:
 
MP5 in .40 instead of 9mm like the European Police...............Harold ***most gunfights take place at arms length with most shots missing...........................
 
I have shot the 5946 and the smaller version owned by DFO. They both had a trigger job done to smooth the pull within the allowed trigger pull. They both shot nicely and I would love to have one with the RCMP logo. I also shot a 5946 belonging to a Sheriff, the trigger truely sucked on that one.
 
Teapot said:
The Mounties are testing the C-8? It really does work or the CF wouldn't have bought it.
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Having dealt with the fed's on procurement issues before, (imagine slow, painfull torture, every day, for months on end) this is no suprise. Every dep't is it's own little demigod entity, so they will go out of their way to do it the hard way. Why? Because they can!
 
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Fry said:
Actually, I'd beg to differ. Most of the people who take the time to go through the trouble to obtain their RPAL, ATT's, invest in handguns and the costly ammo that goes with them, usually are much more proficient some of those in police/military. I know of mounties who despise their service piece and apart from duty use, only use it to qualify and that's it. You cannot be proficient in shooting only once or twice a year. I don't care where 'most' instances happen. All police should have to qualify - and qualify often, up to 20-25m with their sidearm. It's only practice, for God's sake, it's not like it's asking 'em to give their kidneys! If my profession involved the possible use of a firearm, I would want to be as proficient as I could be, for myself and for others.

A popcan at 15m is a pretty big target. I feel that it takes more than once or twice a year to get a good feel for the firearm and become as proficient as possible.
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I stand by my comments which are based on fact as well as doctrine.

Also, I KNOW that I can make COM hits at 50 metres with my issued 5946 because I have done it in competition. That scenario is so far into the 4th standard deviation... 99.9999999% of officer involved shootings will take place WELL inside that range. The fact that it can be done does not mean it is relevant to most officers. There is a very finite and very small budget in terms of both time and ammunition for training, which is best spent on the things that most officers will actually need their pistol for. That being said, the first 14 rounds (out of 50) on the Qual course of fire are at 25 metres. (5 rounds standing right barricade, 2 rounds standing left barricade, 5 rounds kneeling barricade, 2 rounds prone in two minutes from the holster) the second stage is also marksmanship - 15 metres, 8 rounds in 20 seconds. 4 rounds standing unsupported, 4 rounds kneeling unsupported. Then it gets tighter and faster and transitions to tactical flash-sighting exercises that will hopefully help the officer survive and win the gunfight. So yes, nearly half of the qualification is on precision shooting.
 
KyleM said:
I stand by my comments which are based on fact as well as doctrine.

Also, I KNOW that I can make COM hits at 50 metres with my issued 5946 because I have done it in competition. That scenario is so far into the 4th standard deviation... 99.9999999% of officer involved shootings will take place WELL inside that range. The fact that it can be done does not mean it is relevant to most officers. There is a very finite and very small budget in terms of both time and ammunition for training, which is best spent on the things that most officers will actually need their pistol for. That being said, the first 14 rounds (out of 50) on the Qual course of fire are at 25 metres. (5 rounds standing right barricade, 2 rounds standing left barricade, 5 rounds kneeling barricade, 2 rounds prone in two minutes from the holster) the second stage is also marksmanship - 15 metres, 8 rounds in 20 seconds. 4 rounds standing unsupported, 4 rounds kneeling unsupported. Then it gets tighter and faster and transitions to tactical flash-sighting exercises that will hopefully help the officer survive and win the gunfight. So yes, nearly half of the qualification is on precision shooting.
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I'm aware of budget issues. I'm also aware that there fantastic shooters in all professions, not only those that have specific training. I also know that to be proficient, one must practice always. Budget or no budget, police and military personnel should be shooting in their off-time, even at their cost.

My point is that there are a ton of civilians who take it upon themselves to get trained, practice and shoot - all at their own expense. They aren't 'forced' by a profession to do so. I believe that if your life relies on such a tool, then one should be proficient ALWAYS.

Don't discredit 'recreational shooters'. I'm willing to bet there are quite a few 'recreational shooters' out there that could knock your socks off at the range :)
 
Fry said:
I'm aware of budget issues. I'm also aware that there fantastic shooters in all professions, not only those that have specific training. I also know that to be proficient, one must practice always. Budget or no budget, police and military personnel should be shooting in their off-time, even at their cost.

My point is that there are a ton of civilians who take it upon themselves to get trained, practice and shoot - all at their own expense. They aren't 'forced' by a profession to do so. I believe that if your life relies on such a tool, then one should be proficient ALWAYS.

Don't discredit 'recreational shooters'. I'm willing to bet there are quite a few 'recreational shooters' out there that could knock your socks off at the range :)
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I was a recreational shooter for many, many years before I became an occupational user of firearms. I would suggest that the number one shooter in Canada right now in PPC is a retired police officer, G.F. of Regina SK. That level of shooting will knock the socks off of anyone police, military or recreational. Only natural talent honed by practice and coaching will reach that level, and I freely admit I do not have that level of natural talent. I have to work hard, and on a very good day I am happy to reach the 75% level of his performance. It's the same thing with the best 100% recreational PPC shooter I know S.G. of Lethbridge AB. Natural talent is one thing. Occupational readiness is another. Nobody is ever going to measure the group size in a bad guy's body, just as long as the good guys go home at the end of the day then mission accomplished.

If I was the king of the world, I would install an ammunition vending machine on every floor of every police station in the country and an officer would be expected to shoot an epic quantity of practice rounds in both bullseye known distance marksmanship and 360 degree live fire/unknown distance/dynamic scenarios, including regular simmunition sessions. It would be nice to wear out a few sets of springs on my duty pistol every year. It's just not realistic. I probably shoot more than 98% of non-specialized police officers in Saskatchewan and I will not reach my mandatory overhaul on the pistol more than every 3 years at my current rate... maybe 2 if I can get to a few more matches this year. I'm going (at 100% personal expense) to matches in BC, AB, SK, North Dakota and possibly MB in 2009. The only public funds for that are some of the matches I can use my issue pistol and issue practice ammo. Transportation, meals, hotels, other ammo is all at my own expense, and my time is on my annual vacation time. It's not like the old days when government cars were used and full expenses were paid, and time was "Absent On Duty" My shooting matches cost me many thousands of dollars every year to participate in.

I try to encourage my co-workers and other non-work friends to participate in shooting, but I think there has been such a cultural shift in Canada because the pain in the ass to get to a range to practice or to hobby shoot with a restricted or prohib is driving people (police and recreational) away. It would be great to make it more accessible, but that's the breaks. It would be awesome to just haul your pistol out to a cow pasture and blast away at whatever, but that is just as frowned on for police as anyone else.
 
KyleM said:
I was a recreational shooter for many, many years before I became an occupational user of firearms. I would suggest that the number one shooter in Canada right now in PPC is a retired police officer, G.F. of Regina SK. That level of shooting will knock the socks off of anyone police, military or recreational. Only natural talent honed by practice and coaching will reach that level, and I freely admit I do not have that level of natural talent. I have to work hard, and on a very good day I am happy to reach the 75% level of his performance. It's the same thing with the best 100% recreational PPC shooter I know S.G. of Lethbridge AB. Natural talent is one thing. Occupational readiness is another. Nobody is ever going to measure the group size in a bad guy's body, just as long as the good guys go home at the end of the day then mission accomplished.
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I believe that every record that G.F. holds (in the Duty Pistol PPC course of fire) was earned using his S&W5946. It is his personal gun and the gun has had the trigger action "smoothed" (polished and fine tuned). He also installed a 106mm BarSto barrel in order to get the gun registered as a "Restricted"... but believe it or not the BarSto is not that much tighter than the factory barrel when it comes to 25m shooting.

I've had the priviledge of shooting his gun in the Nationals a couple years ago and must say that it has the finest double action trigger that I've ever used... on any DAO gun!

Better than ANY other DAO semi-auto I've ever fired... even better than any DA Revolver I've ever owned or fired (and I own a very nice PPC Revolver with custom trigger). I was amazed at just how good the trigger on the S&W5946 can be... it opened my eyes.

Having said that... I've seen G.F. shoot amazing scores using what others called "junk guns". I've watch him take an out of the box S&W revolver with no trigger work, factory sights, etc. and still shoot top notch scores (as long as the ammo was good, barrel was true and sights were correctly set)... he won't shoot quite as well as with a tricked out gun but he'll still outshoot me on my best day :)

Mark
 
I am not sure about how up to date the list is,..but there is a list of PPC shooters and there rank with organization.
 
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