Restricted Storeage Question

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kkramar

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http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/1/Hunting/FirearmSecurityProtection/PRDOVR~0755657P/Stack-On%252BPistol%252BSecurity%252BCabinet.jsp

I bought this gun safe for my glock 22. Now I know that with restricted firearms there's two ways of storage.

Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is hard to break into; or
Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.

Now with that safe I bought, do I have to put the trigger lock on it, or can i just leave it off???

Mainly, is this safe considered a safe that was built specifically to store firearms?
 
No as the ad states it is a cabinet NOT a safe, it must be trigger lock inside a locked cabinet or container. A safe is sometimes a broad term and can be left open to interpetation, but it is also has to be designated a safe by the manufacturer. Is it a gun SAFE? this question is a largly debated question and left open to various opinions in most cases.
 
nate18 said:
i wouldn't store ammo with it either
Click to expand...

By 'it' I presume you mean the restricted firearm.
i.e. you suggest: do not store both a {restricted firearm with trigger lock} and {ammunition} within the same canadian tire steel cabinet.

I'm kicking around the idea of buying one of these canadian tire steel cabinets just to store ammunition in. (no firearms)
 
yes^^im not a lawyer though so i may be wrong but from what i understand its not a good idea to store ammo and a restricted in the same "cabinet". unless its named safe, from what ive read and understand thats the law. but dont take my word, do your own research. i very may well be wrong.
 
kkramar said:
that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.
Click to expand...
CanadianTireStackOnPistolSecurityCabinet7556570.jpg

It's called a "pistol" security cabinet, and it's shown with 3 pistols and ammunition. It could probably be argued in court that you were just following the pictures at Canadian Tire (a store that's both all across canada, as well as has 'Canadian' in the name). I'm not saying you'd win. However it's obvious it was built and intended to store firearms, from both the name and the photo.

If you buy one of these, make sure you bolt it down. There's a thread here about someone who was detained (arrested?) because the police felt that because they could carry the whole thing out of the house in one hand (with the guns inside), that it wasn't safe storage. [I don't recall if he was convicted or not -- I'm merely pointing out that he was detained. It's the thread where the brother unlocked something]

I know a few people who store a single no-trigger-lock unloaded semi-auto pistol and charged magazine in one of these (this 'Garrison Digital Security Safe' is also available from Canadian tire)
IMG_2028.jpg

from: hxxp://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/SafetySecurity/FireSafes/PRD~0460036P/Garrison%252BDigital%252BSecurity%252BSafe.jsp

I'm a bit of a safe nazi, so both of these are a little thin for me to store a restricted in. But I have no objections to people going with the minimum regulations (criminal code 86.2). Some people suggest calling the local firearms officer for an opinion of what is satisfactory in that city (criminal code 86.1).

CriminalCode said:
86. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, uses, carries, handles, ships, transports or stores a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition in a careless manner or without reasonable precautions for the safety of other persons.

86. (2) Every person commits an offence who contravenes a regulation made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act respecting the storage, handling, transportation, shipping, display, advertising and mail-order sales of firearms and restricted weapons
Click to expand...
 
legi0n said:
can you quote the relevant legal section(s) for the above affirmation ?
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No I cant. But if a manufacture wont call it a safe how could an individual even begin to argue to a judge that it is a safe?

The way I see it is, if a company that produces an item and wont call it a safe wont refer to it as a safe and wont make any claims as such, but will make referance to it as a lockable ?? anything be it a bag, box, cabinet, ect then how if you were ever charge for improper storage, could you argue in the end that it was stored proper in a SAFE.

It only makes sense that a designation by a company as a safe it has met some stricter break and enter standards ( but then maybe not) , but still, when it comes to the grey areas of storage law some may say it does not meet the standard, simply because it wasnt designated as a GUN SAFE. but in the end if its called a safe, and sold as a safe you have a better chance convincing a judge it is a safe
 
Last edited:
What if you don't consider it as a "safe" but a "container"? I phoned CFC and asked questions regarding the safe storage of restricted firearm. What she told me is that as long as it is trigger locked and the item that contains it is opaque and locked, the firearm is stored safely under the Firearm Act. So technically, if I put a trigger lock on all firearms, it doesn't really matter (according to the law) if we put them in a locked Pelican case, a CT "safe", or a real heavy duty gun safe.
 
I keep my restricted firearms in an ADG Handgun Case.

Triggers are locked and the case is locked by 2 locks as well which are built into the case. Now according to what the firearm instructors have told me as well as the RCMP that is more than adequate for safe firearm storage.

Seeing as how this case is designed for safe transportation and storage I don't think the standard RCMP Officer would charge me with improper storage of a restricted firearm unless they had a serious grudge against me.

Food for thought.

If you're unsure here's the direct link for the RCMP storage and transportation rules for restricted firearms.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/storage-entreposage-eng.htm
 
al100 said:
No I cant. But if a manufacture wont call it a safe how could an individual even begin to argue to a judge that it is a safe?
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I understand your point of view. But you're only making "safe" assumptions.
As long as the law doesn't have it's own, the judge will agree to the dictionary definition of safe:
safe
–noun
8. a steel or iron box or repository for money, jewels, papers, etc.
9. any receptacle or structure for the storage or preservation of articles: a meat safe.
10. (in plumbing)
a. a pan for catching leakage.
b. template (def. 7).
11. Slang. a condom.

this definition is written by people having the best understanding of word meanings.
More so, in Black's Law dictionary any sheet metal cabinet is legally a safe.
I would expect a firearms instructor to, at least inquire with, the CFC about this issue. It would greatly benefit generations of students.
 
legi0n said:
I understand your point of view. But you're only making "safe" assumptions.
As long as the law doesn't have it's own, the judge will agree to the dictionary definition of safe:
safe
–noun
8. a steel or iron box or repository for money, jewels, papers, etc.
9. any receptacle or structure for the storage or preservation of articles: a meat safe.
10. (in plumbing)
a. a pan for catching leakage.
b. template (def. 7).
11. Slang. a condom.

this definition is written by people having the best understanding of word meanings.
More so, in Black's Law dictionary any sheet metal cabinet is legally a safe.
I would expect a firearms instructor to, at least inquire with, the CFC about this issue. It would greatly benefit generations of students.
Click to expand...
So as I read storage laws from the CFC

Restricted and prohibited firearms
•Attach a secure locking device so the firearms cannot be fired and lock them in a cabinet, container or room that is hard to break into; or
•Lock the firearms in a vault, safe or room that was built or modified specifically to store firearms safely.•For an automatic firearm, also remove the bolt or bolt carrier (if removable) and lock it in a separate room that is hard to break into.

They refer to a lockable cabinet, and a safe built specifically to store firearms as being 2 seperate and different containers. A detailed description of their requirements.

As you quote from Blacks Law, and a common dictionary meaning a genaeral description is that they are one in the same.

In the end you are right in general terms but not as far as the CFC is concerned
 
legi0n said:
More so, in Black's Law dictionary any sheet metal cabinet is legally a safe.
Click to expand...
That's not quite right. I'm objecting to the word 'sheet' in sheet metal.

Black's Law (5th Ed): safe "A metal receptacle for the preservation of valuables. Untouched from danger; not exposed to danger; secure from danger, harm or loss."


However I note

DaveTomlinson said:
A sheet metal gun safe, or other locked metal container fits the description of "safe" in Black's Law Dictionary. So does the thick-walled fireproof box with a combination dial that most people think of when they think of a “safe.”

Each is a "metal container for the preservation of valuables."

from: http://www.nfa.ca/node/132
Click to expand...

And going the other way, Underwriters Laboritories says the smallest thing it's willing to test/define as a 'safe' must have a 1/2" steel door with 1/4" steel walls. Similarly, most insurance companies require a UL B-rate for a 'safe' (TL-15, with 1/2" steel door and 1/4" steel walls). Underwriter's will not, repeat not rate any container built with less than 1/4" plate on all 6 sides, as a safe.

The best anything smaller than that can achieve is called an RSC (Residential Secure Container). The safe must withstand five minutes of rigorous prying with a hammer and screwdriver.

Your average Liberty/Browning/StackOn 'safe' has 1/10" steel walls and door, and a lot of them have an RSC sticker inside. Canadian Tire cabinets don't remotely qualify for RSC.

--------

As for if any of this is needed for a firearm, well that's another discussion.
 
rangebob said:
That's not quite right. I'm objecting to the word 'sheet' in sheet metal.

Black's Law (5th Ed): safe "A metal receptacle for the preservation of valuables. Untouched from danger; not exposed to danger; secure from danger, harm or loss."


However I note



And going the other way, Underwriters Laboritories says the smallest thing it's willing to test/define as a 'safe' must have a 1/2" steel door with 1/4" steel walls. Similarly, most insurance companies require a UL B-rate for a 'safe' (TL-15, with 1/2" steel door and 1/4" steel walls). Underwriter's will not, repeat not rate any container built with less than 1/4" plate on all 6 sides, as a safe.

The best anything smaller than that can achieve is called an RSC (Residential Secure Container). The safe must withstand five minutes of rigorous prying with a hammer and screwdriver.

Your average Liberty/Browning/StackOn 'safe' has 1/10" steel walls and door, and a lot of them have an RSC sticker inside. Canadian Tire cabinets don't remotely qualify for RSC.

--------

As for if any of this is needed for a firearm, well that's another discussion.
Click to expand...

As far as I know sheet metal is metal nevertheless. There is 0.001" sheet metal and there is 2" sheet metal and anything under, over and in between .
And you're right, neither of these is required by the CC nor by the Firearms Act. The insurance companies (underwriters) are always trying to hedge their liability but that's not part of the law.
 
al100 said:
As you quote from Blacks Law, and a common dictionary meaning a genaeral description is that they are one in the same.

In the end you are right in general terms but not as far as the CFC is concerned
Click to expand...

Didn't want to go there but I did call the CFC and was told a bolted down sheet metal receptacle is ok to store unlocked restricted firearms. I've read here that different CFC personnel have given different advice on the same issue so I did my best to avoid quoting my own experience.
The intent of the law is to buy some time to the potential victim should one decide to use his/her firearms to draw a dispute to an end. In this case, the size of the receptacle is irrelevant since the owner has a key.
But then again, CFCs don't make laws. They're not qualified to interpret laws either.
 
When I took my restricted course it was explained to our class that any "cabinet, safe or container" that could be locked and not easily removed from the premises was legal to store a restricted firearm in. I.E., a glass fronted case for display was ok, as long as the firearm was triggerlocked and the case was locked - even though a simple tap on the glass would allow entry.
The sticky point came in about ammo storage. M understanding that unless the storage device is actually a proper safe it is not safe storage to keep your firearm in it with ammo and the mags that are for that particular gun. Does this sound accurate to anybody else's knowledge?
 
Tac Shop said:
If you're unsure here's the direct link for the RCMP storage and transportation rules for restricted firearms.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/storage-entreposage-eng.htm
Click to expand...

It says here that if its an automatic (I assume theyre referring to semi-auto), you also have to remove the bolt/bolt carrier and store it in a seperate room thats "hard to get into." If the firearm is locked and in a LOCKED safe/cabinet, I can see removing the bolt/bolt carrier, but storing it in a seperate locked room is pretty rediculous if you ask me.
 
Regarding the "safe"... i think it is weak. If your spending $70, go to Walmart and buy their stack on safe. It has 1/4" steel door, for $86. It has an electronic keypad. (model PS-514). My safe says "This is a California DOJ approved firearms safety device.....section 12088).'

As far as the the trigger lock, i would say still yes just to be safe.

As for the storage of the ammo inside, see the NFA interpretation:

CC s. 95 - Possession of Prohibited or Restricted Firearm with Ammunition

* Legal Issues

NFA
BRIEFING DOCUMENT 20 VERSION 1

Criminal Code section (CC s.) 95 says:

95 (1) Subject to
subsection (3) [does not apply to a legal situation where the person is using
the firearm under the direct supervision of another person who is lawfully
entitled to do the same thing with the same firearm] and section 98 [obsolete
section], every person commits an offence who, in any place, possesses a loaded
prohibited firearm or restricted firearm, or an unloaded prohibited firearm or
restricted firearm together with
readily accessible ammunition, unless the person is the holder of

(a) an authorization or licence under which the person may
possess the firearm in that place; and

(b) the registration certificate for the firearm.

This section is much misunderstood, and
frequently charges are laid, using it, improperly.

At first glance, it appears that the person with
the firearm requires some sort of special licence "under which the person
may possess the firearm in that place," loaded or with readily
accessible ammunition.
Careful re-reading, however, proves
that impression to be false. There is
no such licence, and the law does not require any special licence. It requires a regular POL or PAL. Both of those licences authorize the holder
to possess firearms of the classes listed on the back of the POL or PAL, and
the licence does not specify any particular location. It is not limited to any particular location.

The situation is confused by the fact
that newer registration certificates do not state the location where the
firearm is supposed to be kept.
(reference: http://nfa.ca/node/34
 
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