.308, 00 buck, or slug for grizzly?!

The vitriol about bears and guns...

Well Gentlemen, the posts get more dangerous than the beasts discussed!

My bone fides are: four dead black bears, one confrontation with sow and cub, (we all lived) and a single bluff charge and a single Mexican stand off with Grizzlies when I lived in the bush in the Yukon. I have killed a charging 300 lbs wild boar with a brown bess in a cedar swamp (I touched the muzzle to the boars chest when the flincher fired), it made great sausage. I needed new drawers... http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

I am by no means an expert, nor claim to be. I have had years of fun safely in the bush...

In my gun quiver there is a Remington 7600 in 35 Whelen, a BLR in .308, a CDN Airforce survival carbine, a Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70 and various shotguns that I would carry to defend my life and the lives of my companions. My first choice is the pump Whelen with a Williams receiver sight, 225 Nosler partitions, 52.5 grains of 3031 for 2700 fps. The recoil is manageable, totally reliable action, very accurate, easy to carry and comes to my shoulder like my Beretta O/U grouse guns. This combo has taken moose, elk, whiteail, mule deer, black bear and grouse.

I have carried various canoe and pick up guns for survival purposes (not all for killing bears): A Baikal 12g SS with Challenger slugs cut down to 19 inches for use in places not friendly to guns (fits inside a rolled sleeping bag, useless during the day, good for at night), Winchester 94 in 30-30, LE 303s of various types, A Mosin Nagant 7.62x54r with 200gr Noslers (slow action but powerful), A Winchester Ranger in 12g and the ubiquitous Remington 870 12g in a turkey gun with an open choke with 3" Rem buck hammer slugs. I turned down the loan of a G3 HK in 7.62x51 with 20 round mags (legal at the time) because I don't like paramilitary semi autos in the bush, just dense I guess...

There we go Gentlemen, tear my post apart!
 
Like i said in the .308 thread you guys are a tuff crowd.I would like to know how many of you have truly been charged by a pissed off bear.I would also like to know when or at what point do you make the choice to open up . Bait like we talked about started at app 75 yrds. He got off 4 shots .Like i said it Crazy how fast those bears can move . ? is there spell check some wear in this link so i stop spelllin like!
 
DiSmAnTLeR said:
would you be confident using a 180 gr .308 to drop a grizzly?

what about a 3" 00 buck or a high velocity slug in a 12ga?

its for camping. one in a billion chance of needing it and it probably wouldnt even be handy at the time, but if it ever happened i would be kicking myself in the rear for not having one with.
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For Hunting grizz, a .308 will do it at reasonable range, I'd go 180 grain Nosler Partition, Accubond, Barnes TSX. Most people want more as in .338 Mag with a quality 250 grn. A shotgun is not meant for hunting grizzly bears.

For defense, my preference would be for a .45-70 or if I had to, a shotgun with a Brenneke or other special purpose, dangerous game slug. Leave the buckshot and deer slugs on the shelf at Ukrainian Tire.
If .308 is all you have then, I'd go with a dangerous game bullet, Barnes Banded Solid or a GS Custom FN or similar(That I tested for functionality and accuracy).
 
if its a pump or auto, i'd take the shotgun with brenneke slugs. if i could afford another rifle, i'd prefer a 45/70 marlin guide gun, or a .50 alaskan marlin. No bear skull in the world will deflect those rounds, its like launching a brick at them.
 
tactical lever said:
To Rman: Yes he is trying to kill the bear because it expires after you that is of no help to anyone! Plus a wounded bear is more, not less dangerous. And if you do "drive it away" would it be better off dying a slow death because of it's injuries? If it didn't die, it could end up being someone else's problem. Lots of problem bears have been previously wounded.
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Obviously never had a bear encounter? Ever shot a bear? Ever even seen a bear in the bush?

The FIRST thing you're going to want to do is save your own hide, whatever happens after that, happens.

R.
 
DiSmAnTLeR said:
i do have access to a lee enfield ShtMLE. it doesnt shoot straight though.

it does have less kick than my 700.

i am puzzled as to why you think it would be 'very lethal bear defence' and not the .308, is it that much more powerful than a .308? doesnt seem like it.
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Same/Same. 303's are less exspensive to chop apart than most .308's. My only point.

R.
 
X-fan said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rman
12 gauge slugs have been proven not to penetrate as well as rifle bullets. A 12 gauge would be an ok choice for bear defence, as you are not really trying to kill the bear, as much as you are trying to get it to go away. This does leave a mess for someone else to clean up.......

R.

Why is it we have a good discussion about bears and appropriate defensive weapons like this one.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...d.php?t=429035

Other times not so much.....


I'm not sure what to say here, but you've stepped on your ####, yet you feel no pain??
When all else fails zip up!

Go shoot a bear at close range with a slug so you can see what a 12 gauge slug does and does not do. I think you will be impressed.
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Not sure what your point is here, fella. I've shot a lot of critters, with all different types of stuff, and I stand by my comments. I haven't seen a slug yet that will penetrate more than a decent rifle bullet. Maybe you should drop all the #### talk, an pay attention. You may learn something.

R.
 
Many clibres will do the job. Soemtimes a hunting rifle does not lend itself to being a big thumping bear defense rifle, but a gun your good with is better than a 45/70, 375 or whatever, that you can't shoot well...

For camping and fishing I take a dedicated defense gun, ...
 
Rman said:
Not sure what your point is here, fella. I've shot a lot of critters, with all different types of stuff, and I stand by my comments. I haven't seen a slug yet that will penetrate more than a decent rifle bullet. Maybe you should drop all the #### talk, an pay attention. You may learn something.

R.
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You need to pm Sheephunter... he's the authority on the new high velocity bear stopping shotgun slugs he'll inform ya... :D
 
Camp Cook said:
You need to pm Sheephunter... he's the authority on the new high velocity bear stopping shotgun slugs he'll inform ya... :D
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Well now, perhaps someone who saw what I was getting at with the handicap bit... afterall, slug guns are at least as good or not better than the 45/70 ;) I believe those new Uber slugs are even better!

Where is ol Sheep these days...
 
Actually if I had bought my 14" Dlask 12 gauge Rem 870 barrel before I bought my Marlin 1895GS I may never have purchased my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70....

I'm glad I didn't I would have missed out on a great rifle but I wouldn't have needed it.
 
Camp Cook said:
Actually if I had bought my 14" Dlask 12 gauge Rem 870 barrel before I bought my Marlin 1895GS I may never have purchased my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70....

I'm glad I didn't I would have missed out on a great rifle but I wouldn't have needed it.
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Do you use the dlask much?

Shortest I ever had was an 18 inch on rem 870... it was the ultimate for rabbits.. had it threaded for chokes.
 
No I don't shoot it that much only because I have the Marlin and reload so do not need to search for and buy expensive slugs...

It is extremely fast to use though...

Oh man do I feel another range video happening soon on the 14" 870 my 21" barreled 375RUM....

Here is a pic of my 14" and a 18.5" Rem 870 12 gauge shotguns.

My_Bear_Defense_Guns_002.jpg


Here is the 14" 870 again with my Marlin GS & my 4.25" SRH in 454 Casull = 6 405gr WLNGC's @ 1330fps

437grs = 1 ounce

Dec_25_to_28_2007_086.jpg
 
Many years ago I got a copy of a study done by the US Dept of Agriculture re bear defense for work crews in Alaska. Good read and well done.

Dug up an URL for it: http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/5573

THIS COULD BE THE END OF THE NEVER ENDING BEAR DEFENSE threads.

Top score was 458 Win Mag
Highest penetration was 45 70 out of a Marlin with 300 Grn bullets...24 inches!!

1 458
2 460
3 375 H&H 300 GR with long barrel
4 338 WIN MAG 260 GR with short barrel
5 375 H&H 270 GR with long barrel
6 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with short barrel
7 338 WIN MAG 250 GR with short barrel
8 338 WIN MAG 200 GR with long barrel
9 338 WIN MAG 300 GR with long barrel
10 375 H&H 300 GR with short barrel
11 30-06 220 GR
12 30-06 180 GR
13 444
14 358
15 7 MAG
16 375 H&H 270 GR with short barrel
17 45-70 300 GR with short barrel
18 308 180GR
19 45-70 300 GR with LONG barrel
"In our tests the 12 gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion."

"We also tested the penetration of 00 buckshot.

...the 9 pellets had a spread of of about 12 X12 inches and a penetration of only 2 to 3 inches. We then shortened the range to 15 feet. From this distance the spread was 2 inches and the maximum penetration of a single shot was 7 inches. At the shorter range the nine pellets appear to act as a single projectile and the 00 buckshot might be relatively effective."

"From our tests it would appear the slug is much superior to buckshot...

Whether buckshot would be lethal beyond 5 yds is doubtful."

"Hitting a brown bear with buckshot beyond 5 yards may mean a nonlethal wound and a very active, angry bear."

"Hitting vital areas is the important thing"

The moral of the story is a rifle is better with heavy hard nose bullets and you have to hit it where it will do some damage.

bg
 
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