In 1974 a grroup of grade seven kids and two teachers dropped off all their eqpt near Sheep Creek outside of Grade Cache (I was the Principal) and went for a walk before setting up their outdoor Ed camp. Two grizzlies ripped the equipment apart while they were gone...so the teachers loaded the kids in the back of a pick-up and brought them back to town. I wanted the program to run, so I met with the local Game Warden prior to sending out another group and asked if we should send a rifle with the teachers...he advised "NO, send an axe"! To which I responded "are you crazy, the bear would kill the teacher in a heartbeat" "Right", he said "but the kids will get away while he eats the teacher"!
Defense against BEARS.
- Thread starter =(M-1)=
- Start date
If Boomer had patients he'd be a doctor!
(sorry, I have been saving that joke for awhile!)Seeing as you guys are thinking of combining all the bear defence threads into one (should be about the size the Encylopedia Brittanica) I thought I would read and summarize the, um, pertinent advice given so far.
BEAR DEFENCE TOOL CHEAT SHEET
GOOD
Pepper spray, any medium to large .30 caliber rifle with quality bullets, 45/70, 12ga with Brenneke/Challenger slugs AND practice with what you have chosen.
BAD
Tavor, sks, Axe, Poodle, Flare gun, 12ga with buckshot, 12ga with a pistol grip, Knife, Short shorts, Spears, Napalm, Red Ryder BB guns, Stern words, Track shoes, Gimpy hunting partners.
I need a nap........
- Location
- Vancouvver BC
It’s in the shape of a bear so if you get attacked by bears at night You won’t get eaten because the bear will be all “Oh! Pardon me. I didn’t know you were in here” and then You make the bear’s head say “No problem. I was just devouring this girl. By the way, how did you get in here?” and the bear will be like “Oh, some a**hole left the front door unlocked”
Come on, the guy's just asking questions... he's working things through in his mind and respectfully sucking up knowledge from people who know more than he does... He hasn't been rude at all...
Nobody makes anyone read bear defense threads. I never understand why 10% or so of posts on these threads consist of people saying "Oh God, not another bear defense thread" followed by insults.
Jeff
It’s in the shape of a bear so if you get attacked by bears at night You won’t get eaten because the bear will be all “Oh! Pardon me. I didn’t know you were in here” and then You make the bear’s head say “No problem. I was just devouring this girl. By the way, how did you get in here?” and the bear will be like “Oh, some a**hole left the front door unlocked”
You might not get eaten but there's a good chance your getting f@%ked!
Jeff
- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
I love a good bear defense thread but it is the constant reverting back to the tavor and the .223 that gets these facepalms.
Thanks for your concern. I know I don’t fit in well here, There’s too much soldier left in me. In fact I suspect most people are more offended by me than the thread. They face palm me and only me. When its been said by the most experienced members in this thread, that buck shot is no good for bears. Yet no-one face palms the many poster who chose 00 buckshot. but if I were to openly choose it, I would be met with a dozen face palms. Oh well, at least its good to find a few friendly open minded people in this mess.
As for bear defense threads, they may mock it all they want, but people have posted several times in fact, that they have learned something from it, as did I. And between the 9000 views of this thread, maybe that info will one day save mine, or someone else’s life.
Lets get this straight. You facepalm me for deffending .223 armor piercing bullets. specifically designed to fragment its outer layer on contact leaving a wide dispersal much like a shotgun, with a tungsten core that can penetrate thick bone aswell as mark IV (soldier grade) heavily body armor (that would stop a standard .308-FMJ. or shotgun slug) or penetrate up to 1/4 inch of case hardened steel, with an effective range out to 450 meters. That is delivered from an up to date modern design, highly accurate, highly stable rifle that you can put shots on target almost as fast as you can pull the trigger,(more than a match for an M-16) works immdiatly after being emersed from water, or even with a bit of dirt in it. With quick reloadablity (should the situation lend the opportunity.) sub-2 seconds to flip the combination mag, sub-4 to reload a full double 10 shot mag.
However you don’t face palm the members that chose 00 buck. that can be stopped by the lightest 'under your T-shirt' body armor, does mostly tissue and light bone damage, (on large animals) is limited in range and penetration, and wouldnt leave a mark on 1/4 inch case hardend steel. its advantage however is considerable due to its multiple shot dispersal. It is delivered from a proven effective firearm design, but once your out of shots, it will take a long time to reload. 2+ seconds per shot.
I do not doubt that 00 buck loaded Shotgun is a close quarters match for a Tavor. but they are not so far apart that a Tavor gets facepalmed and a shotgun does not. There are dozens of Boards that would be face palming you right now. ( I.E. I love my rifle so dont pick on it. unless you like getting a garanteed reaction from me. and a facepalm.)
As much as you seem to like disagreeing with me, I'm not sure you are quite so smart as you make your self out to be. All the truly helpful answers came from other people, a majority of the negativity in this thread came from you. I have gained a great deal of respect for those who helped me. even Gatehouse hit me with a lot of negativity, but he in turn gave me great info, and that I can respect. What little you gave was not worth the s**t storm. I hope this is not what I'm going to have to deal with every time I post a question in future threads. A better way of telling me I'm wrong would be to 'OFFER' your point of view, rather than facepalming me and leave us all none the wiser, I've seen that comming from people on other boards who turn out to be as dumb as door nails, I'm sure your not one of those, but you do catch my drift?
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- Location
- Niagara Region, Ontario. For now
You are getting all the information you need from boomer and gatehouse and they continually tell you their opinion, just to have you bring up the tavor again and again. Hence the facepalm. I dont have anthing to offer other than you should be listening to those guys.
Lets change the scenario a bit. You have a question about something else say computers. You ask a bunch of people what is the best computer for my needs which are this this and this. I have x type of computer what do you guys think. Then some knowledgeable people come and say no way you need to be using this or this. You come back with i see but x type of computer is blah blah blah. Why even ask the question in the first place if you don't seem to take their advice seriously.
Lets change the scenario a bit. You have a question about something else say computers. You ask a bunch of people what is the best computer for my needs which are this this and this. I have x type of computer what do you guys think. Then some knowledgeable people come and say no way you need to be using this or this. You come back with i see but x type of computer is blah blah blah. Why even ask the question in the first place if you don't seem to take their advice seriously.
I shot my first charging black bear @ 8 yards over 20 years ago I was carrying a 308 Norma Mag loaded with 180gr bullets @ 3060fps bullets.
The bullet impacted the bear on the left side of its neck/shoulder and exited out the off side chest on impact the bears head was pushed downwards so fast and the bear was running so fast that it drove its head into the ground and the body somersaulted over the head so the bear was laying flat on its back.
but that wasn't the end of the bear yet... it slowly rolled over and started crawling towards me using only it's front legs I had broken it's back with the shot, a second shot finished it.
I would use a 223 if that was all I had but I wouldn't recommend it or 00 Buck...
The bullet impacted the bear on the left side of its neck/shoulder and exited out the off side chest on impact the bears head was pushed downwards so fast and the bear was running so fast that it drove its head into the ground and the body somersaulted over the head so the bear was laying flat on its back.
but that wasn't the end of the bear yet... it slowly rolled over and started crawling towards me using only it's front legs I had broken it's back with the shot, a second shot finished it.
I would use a 223 if that was all I had but I wouldn't recommend it or 00 Buck...
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
Well, it's only 5 more sleeps till bear season in BC and then because of the mild winter I'll actually be out hunting bears...
Over the winter I was fortunate enough to find a military surplus GAU-8/Avenger. I've mounted it in the back of my pickup as at a weight of 620 pounds it's hard to pack.
The only problem is finding depleted uraniium to cast new bullets, oh yeah, and it uses a lot of powder per case.
However, with a fire rate of 4000 rounds per minute I'm fairly confident I can stop even a heavily armored bear.
Over the winter I was fortunate enough to find a military surplus GAU-8/Avenger. I've mounted it in the back of my pickup as at a weight of 620 pounds it's hard to pack.
The only problem is finding depleted uraniium to cast new bullets, oh yeah, and it uses a lot of powder per case.
However, with a fire rate of 4000 rounds per minute I'm fairly confident I can stop even a heavily armored bear.
For the original poster. Forget about "facepalming". You keep re-stating your point of view with the hope of getting a different answer that suits you.
I'm sure you like your Tavor and you seem very enthusiastic about the .223/5.56,but it is not good protection against bears. A few of us have conceded that a .223 would certainly kill a bear, given good shot placement and an adequate bullet. In an earlier post I cited 2 examples in my own family history where bears have been killed by a 70gr .228 bullet from a .22 Savage Hi-Power. Spraying a bear with a semi-auto would no doubt increase the probability of getting a lucky hit in a vital area, but again it calls up the old argument of this versus deliberately aimed shots.
I've used the .223/5.56 quite extensively in the Army and for varmint hunting. The military adopted the 5.56 round as a way of increasing the soldier's rate of fire vs a given weight of weapon and ammunition that he carries. The military was/is satisfied that the 5.56 can kill or incapacitate a man in most situations, and it can do that. I have seen 2 men killed by 5.56 rounds and I can assure you that it was very effective. I used to use one example in a safety briefing to my troops before annual range qualifications. In this case the man was shot in the head at close range. The impact shattered the skull and completely dislodged the brain. It was quite a vivid testimony to the effectiveness of the 5.56. I am looking at a black bear skull on my bookshelf as I write this and it is not that much more massive or better protected than a human skull(sadly I've seen my share of those too).
But a bear is not a man. A wounded man will mostly fall down and lie there waiting for assistance, because he knows that he is supposed to do that. A bear is a very tenacious predatory animal with a powerful instinct to survive. I've done a fair amount of bear hunting, and seen a few bears shot, but only decided to shoot one bear myself (how many bear rugs does one really need?) In this case, the bear(a good sized cinammon boar) was shot with a 180gr .303 British bullet @ 30 yds which destroyed his heart and bowled him arse over teakettle. He was on his feet in a flash and ploughed 50 yds through dense willows before he expired. A wounded bear will lie up and watch his backtrail with the purpose of killing whatever is following him, so the aim is to knock him down and hopefully kill him with a heavy bullet on the first shot. That is what most folks have been saying in this thread and the 5.56 does not fill the bill, nor does 00 buck for that matter.
I confess to having had some fun with this thread, but I've tried to include some serious comments in my posts as well. If, after some pretty repetitive sound advice, and all kibitzing aside, you remain convinced that the .223 semi-auto is a viable bear protection choice, you will not progress your theories much further here on the internet. Perhaps you should consider a bear hunt this spring to get a better grasp on the reality of this. Bears are an interesting big game animal and hunting them is enjoyable too.
I'm sure you like your Tavor and you seem very enthusiastic about the .223/5.56,but it is not good protection against bears. A few of us have conceded that a .223 would certainly kill a bear, given good shot placement and an adequate bullet. In an earlier post I cited 2 examples in my own family history where bears have been killed by a 70gr .228 bullet from a .22 Savage Hi-Power. Spraying a bear with a semi-auto would no doubt increase the probability of getting a lucky hit in a vital area, but again it calls up the old argument of this versus deliberately aimed shots.
I've used the .223/5.56 quite extensively in the Army and for varmint hunting. The military adopted the 5.56 round as a way of increasing the soldier's rate of fire vs a given weight of weapon and ammunition that he carries. The military was/is satisfied that the 5.56 can kill or incapacitate a man in most situations, and it can do that. I have seen 2 men killed by 5.56 rounds and I can assure you that it was very effective. I used to use one example in a safety briefing to my troops before annual range qualifications. In this case the man was shot in the head at close range. The impact shattered the skull and completely dislodged the brain. It was quite a vivid testimony to the effectiveness of the 5.56. I am looking at a black bear skull on my bookshelf as I write this and it is not that much more massive or better protected than a human skull(sadly I've seen my share of those too).
But a bear is not a man. A wounded man will mostly fall down and lie there waiting for assistance, because he knows that he is supposed to do that. A bear is a very tenacious predatory animal with a powerful instinct to survive. I've done a fair amount of bear hunting, and seen a few bears shot, but only decided to shoot one bear myself (how many bear rugs does one really need?) In this case, the bear(a good sized cinammon boar) was shot with a 180gr .303 British bullet @ 30 yds which destroyed his heart and bowled him arse over teakettle. He was on his feet in a flash and ploughed 50 yds through dense willows before he expired. A wounded bear will lie up and watch his backtrail with the purpose of killing whatever is following him, so the aim is to knock him down and hopefully kill him with a heavy bullet on the first shot. That is what most folks have been saying in this thread and the 5.56 does not fill the bill, nor does 00 buck for that matter.
I confess to having had some fun with this thread, but I've tried to include some serious comments in my posts as well. If, after some pretty repetitive sound advice, and all kibitzing aside, you remain convinced that the .223 semi-auto is a viable bear protection choice, you will not progress your theories much further here on the internet. Perhaps you should consider a bear hunt this spring to get a better grasp on the reality of this. Bears are an interesting big game animal and hunting them is enjoyable too.
tactical870
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Buckhorn, Ontario
For the most part correct.... I however am a firm believer that OOB is a very effective round on bears. Ontario MNR uses it almost exclusively and one CO I spoke with assured me he's put over 50 down in their tracks with OOB.
If you read my posts you would understand that I had NOT set aside any of what I have learned. In fact, as I recall I never supported the Tavor as a valid choice from the very beginning, so your argument is MOOT right there. Look at any of my Tavor posts, if I doesn’t out right say it is not my choice, I instead shed negative light on it as being a valid choice. So are you really trolling, or am I just getting all the wrong impressions.
When I make reference to the Tavor it is only because people such as you, but not limited to you, face palm it. yet a shotgun loaded with buck shot is not so much better that it should not be face palmed as well. I think I have proven this time and time again.
Yet numerous other members chose the shotgun without you face palming them. Therefore It is me you have a problem with, and that’s it, the rifle is of no concern to you whatsoever or any of you. you just see to want to pick on me.
Had it been a genuine concern that my weapon choice was inadequate, you would have been mocking everyone who chose the Tavor or buck shot. Hell one guy poked fun at the Tavor while choosing buckshot, you should have been all over him.
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Thank you for your post, it was very informative, but it seems you have misjudge my posts. I never once chose the Tavor or 5.56mm over a shotgun slug or higher caliber rifle. I have shed negative light on such a choice in all but my last post describing it. Where I only sought to prove that it was every bit an equal, or even better a choice than buckshot, and that peoples distain for the Tavor was just a means of trolling, or that they had been overlooking the rifle and bullets many fine quality’s. Which is what I was trying to get across to them before, that it was not as bad a choice as they made it out to be. I only stood up to say that it was a viable choice, but never did I say it was the best choice, not once. I still stand by that.
As for my last question directed at Boomer, I merely wanted to know if 00 buck or the Tavor would be a better choice for people who cant keep their head to shoot a bear while under stress. (not the sort of problem I have ever known myself to have) He said it was not, and I accepted his answer, just as I had accepted all his answers after he explained them to me.
Thanks again.
Nore would I choose .223 over a larger caliber. It seems that statement is over looked in this thread no matter how many times I write it.
I would personally opt for shotgun slugs or a .300 winchester magnum or better. However I tend to like pumpactions over bolt actions, so my next purchase will likely be a shotgun.Great story, thats gotta be in the list of top ten weirdest things you have ever seen. "WTF!!!"
Sort of like a Terminator bear LOL. Did you check to see that it really WAS dead, because some times they re-route their power source and come back to life.LOL
Thanks for you input on this matter and for the great story, its deffenetly up there with the best bear stories I have heard yet, I'll be adding it to my collection of favorites. Thanks.
My .02
My Family and I go camping in the wilds every year, as much as we can. I'm talking to lakes where you need the 8" lift with 36"+ tires and a winch to get there, as well as packing in fuel to get back home. The lakes we go to are some of the same places I go in the fall to hunt as well. We like going to the remote areas so we don't have to deal with the drunks and thieves that seem to inhabit the woods nowadays as well as seeing nature as it was meant to be........
So, beyond food, water, and everything we need for a week + in the bush I bring:
1. Maverick 88 security 8. We do NOT have the pistol grip on ours so my 12 year old daughter, and my wife have no problems aiming it. This holds 8 + 1 if you use 2 3/4" shells, we use 2 3/4" riffled slugs and 3" 000 steel buck so it will only hold 7 + 1.
2. 2 Giant cans of spray on Bear BBQ sauce... Err Bear spray. I have seen it used and used it in the past. I feel it will only slow them down enough to either get in the truck if it's close, or give you a second to start shooting.
3. Our 2 Choxweillers. Nothing like two canines to help keep bears away, or at least give you some advanced warning to predators approaching.
I would gladly equip my wife with her .357mag, and I with a .44mag if it were legal again.
AND FWIW where we go there are Griz, Blackies, and cougar around, as well as Wolves, coyotes, deer and moose!
And why would I take my wife and daughter into such hostile territory with only these tools and a TENT to keep use safe? Because they love it, and the fishing is second to none!
I also always have my 300 WM available if needed
PS:
If ANY Predator looks at us twice sideways it gets a lead injection INSTANTLY. Period.
My Family and I go camping in the wilds every year, as much as we can. I'm talking to lakes where you need the 8" lift with 36"+ tires and a winch to get there, as well as packing in fuel to get back home. The lakes we go to are some of the same places I go in the fall to hunt as well. We like going to the remote areas so we don't have to deal with the drunks and thieves that seem to inhabit the woods nowadays as well as seeing nature as it was meant to be........
So, beyond food, water, and everything we need for a week + in the bush I bring:
1. Maverick 88 security 8. We do NOT have the pistol grip on ours so my 12 year old daughter, and my wife have no problems aiming it. This holds 8 + 1 if you use 2 3/4" shells, we use 2 3/4" riffled slugs and 3" 000 steel buck so it will only hold 7 + 1.
2. 2 Giant cans of spray on Bear BBQ sauce... Err Bear spray. I have seen it used and used it in the past. I feel it will only slow them down enough to either get in the truck if it's close, or give you a second to start shooting.
3. Our 2 Choxweillers. Nothing like two canines to help keep bears away, or at least give you some advanced warning to predators approaching.
I would gladly equip my wife with her .357mag, and I with a .44mag if it were legal again.
AND FWIW where we go there are Griz, Blackies, and cougar around, as well as Wolves, coyotes, deer and moose!
And why would I take my wife and daughter into such hostile territory with only these tools and a TENT to keep use safe? Because they love it, and the fishing is second to none!
I also always have my 300 WM available if needed
PS:
If ANY Predator looks at us twice sideways it gets a lead injection INSTANTLY. Period.
I would gladly equip my wife with her .357mag, and I with a .44mag if it were legal again.
Check out Boomers post on page 23. it has information reguarding how this can be done legally.
Thanks.
And keep up the wheeling. I love that sport and where it can take you.
