molotov ribbentrop pact was signed before hitler went on his rampage. It was a mutual non-aggression pact, without which hitler wouldn't have dared. Keeping the soviets out of the war until they were ready for Barbarossa made perfect sense. hitler swept through Europe and expected to take Britain in short order by bombing them into submission, didn't work. For almost 2 years Britain stood alone and stalin sat by waiting for his share of the loot. Then when hitler double-crossed him he was the one who whined about a second front and gimme gimme. stalin was silly to be caught off guard as he himself had ordered the slaughter of thousands of his own officers he felt may have plotted against him. As a result, his army was in shambles when the nazis invaded. Here's a link to the Katyn forest massacre where stalin ordered the slaughter of several thousand Polish servicemen. Poland was an ally of Britain at the time and the reason Britain and France declared war on Germany in the first place. Stalin was lucky to have had any aid at all from the west, we had enough problems of our own. Instead he whined that Churchill would fight Germany to the last drop of Russian blood and that supplies to Russia were merely symbolic and of little practical value. Ally or foe, hardly much difference.
Korean War: Russian version
- Thread starter snowhunter
- Start date
Countless refugees risking their lives to escape from the iron curtain, China & Vietnam during the commie rein of terror would agree with your statement.
Russia was the real winner of WW2? What a joke. The commies couldn't even win the hearts and mind of their very own people.
It is regards to bashing Stalin, also worth mentioning one of his other Caucasian cronies, the Soviet Security Chief Beria, who suggeted Stalin to massacre all the Polish officers at Katryn Forrest.
It is historically understood, that Stalin and Beria, both from the Caucasus region of the then Soviet Repulic, trusted their own Caucasian countrymen, over other Soviet citizens, and placed mainly fellow Caucasians in key Soviet positions.
For Stalin to control and hurt all of the Soviet, in particular Russia itself, could therefore also been seen as the ultimate historical revenge from the then Soviet Repulic of Georgia, for having been conquered by Russian in the first place ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria
I hope you do not mind typing the above attachment, since the cencors has turned my attachments of.
It is historically understood, that Stalin and Beria, both from the Caucasus region of the then Soviet Repulic, trusted their own Caucasian countrymen, over other Soviet citizens, and placed mainly fellow Caucasians in key Soviet positions.
For Stalin to control and hurt all of the Soviet, in particular Russia itself, could therefore also been seen as the ultimate historical revenge from the then Soviet Repulic of Georgia, for having been conquered by Russian in the first place ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria
I hope you do not mind typing the above attachment, since the cencors has turned my attachments of.
A few points:
1. The western Allies shipped more than 250,000 vehichles to the Soviets. Basically we mechanized their army for them. They built great tanks (with their American Christie suspension) compared to almost everyone else, but you can't move an army on tanks. Without those trucks they would never have got the Niemen, let alone the Oder. The range and quantity of goods supplied was HUGE, everything from radar controlled AA guns to food to boots by the million. When the outcome of the war hung on a few dozen planes and tanks in Malta and the Western Desert, we where shipping hundreds of both to the Soviets, literally.
2. The Soviets graded all their recruits, the lowest grades went to the infantry, the highest grades went to the MVD and NKVD where they mostly survived the war. Just about every other able bodied male they swept up in their path was put into penal DIVISIONS (not battalions folks, but DIVISIONS) so that they died first, with the MGs of the MVD behind them to make sure they advanced on command!
3. Stalin? The guy who was sure his self-made buddy Adolf wouldn't attack and so had all the Soviet frontier defences destroyed in 1940-41? Soviet intelligence knew what was coming in 1941, but if you said anything you were lucky if you got only 10 years in the Gulag with your finger nails torn out, like Marshall Rokossovsky for example, not that he said anything about that.
4. Stalin decapitated the Red Army, killing off most of the officer cadre between 1937 and 1940. Why? Because he was a paranoid maniac and like Mao believed that the best way to prevent his own removal was to keep the state in a condition of terror and turmoil.
5.
Great theory if you want to sell a lot of books these days. The DNA, if any exists, would be explained by Japanese, Chinese or Korean ship wreck survivors blown across the Pacific, the Haida for example.
Menzies is interested in supporting his theory, not determining what theory the evidence supports. For example, the shipwreck in the Sacramento River area that he suggest is a junk is probably one of Thomas Cavendish's ships from 1587-88. When the Spanish were moving up into California, they were told of Indians in that area who were light-skinned, red-haired, and blue-eyed - the descendants of survivors from one of Thomas Cavendish's ships obviously since there were no other Europeans in the area. Making the English the first Europeans to settle in California. Not only that, but Drake was obviously the first explorer to visit the Pacific Northwest, and lay claim to it. Long before the Spanish.
You might want to read this: http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Voyage-Sir-Francis-Drake/dp/0802714056
But then I just watched a program the other day that mentioned that it is a wide-spread and semi-official belief in China that the Chinese are not descended from Homo sapiens like us barbarians, but actually descended from Homo Erectus ("Peking Man") Unfortunately the DNA testing conducted by a Chinese scientist using some 1200 samples from all over China showed no trace of Homo Erectus DNA. He admitted he was disappointed to discover the Chinese were not genetically distinct in that way from other humans as he had believed.
Speaking of WWII, the belief that a nation is somehow racially unique has some interesting precedents doesn't it?
1. The western Allies shipped more than 250,000 vehichles to the Soviets. Basically we mechanized their army for them. They built great tanks (with their American Christie suspension) compared to almost everyone else, but you can't move an army on tanks. Without those trucks they would never have got the Niemen, let alone the Oder. The range and quantity of goods supplied was HUGE, everything from radar controlled AA guns to food to boots by the million. When the outcome of the war hung on a few dozen planes and tanks in Malta and the Western Desert, we where shipping hundreds of both to the Soviets, literally.
2. The Soviets graded all their recruits, the lowest grades went to the infantry, the highest grades went to the MVD and NKVD where they mostly survived the war. Just about every other able bodied male they swept up in their path was put into penal DIVISIONS (not battalions folks, but DIVISIONS) so that they died first, with the MGs of the MVD behind them to make sure they advanced on command!
3. Stalin? The guy who was sure his self-made buddy Adolf wouldn't attack and so had all the Soviet frontier defences destroyed in 1940-41? Soviet intelligence knew what was coming in 1941, but if you said anything you were lucky if you got only 10 years in the Gulag with your finger nails torn out, like Marshall Rokossovsky for example, not that he said anything about that.
4. Stalin decapitated the Red Army, killing off most of the officer cadre between 1937 and 1940. Why? Because he was a paranoid maniac and like Mao believed that the best way to prevent his own removal was to keep the state in a condition of terror and turmoil.
5.
Great theory if you want to sell a lot of books these days. The DNA, if any exists, would be explained by Japanese, Chinese or Korean ship wreck survivors blown across the Pacific, the Haida for example.
Menzies is interested in supporting his theory, not determining what theory the evidence supports. For example, the shipwreck in the Sacramento River area that he suggest is a junk is probably one of Thomas Cavendish's ships from 1587-88. When the Spanish were moving up into California, they were told of Indians in that area who were light-skinned, red-haired, and blue-eyed - the descendants of survivors from one of Thomas Cavendish's ships obviously since there were no other Europeans in the area. Making the English the first Europeans to settle in California. Not only that, but Drake was obviously the first explorer to visit the Pacific Northwest, and lay claim to it. Long before the Spanish.
You might want to read this: http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Voyage-Sir-Francis-Drake/dp/0802714056
But then I just watched a program the other day that mentioned that it is a wide-spread and semi-official belief in China that the Chinese are not descended from Homo sapiens like us barbarians, but actually descended from Homo Erectus ("Peking Man") Unfortunately the DNA testing conducted by a Chinese scientist using some 1200 samples from all over China showed no trace of Homo Erectus DNA. He admitted he was disappointed to discover the Chinese were not genetically distinct in that way from other humans as he had believed.
Speaking of WWII, the belief that a nation is somehow racially unique has some interesting precedents doesn't it?
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- Location
- Manitoulin Island
I know that the Americans come in for a lot of flak because they got into WW2 late as they did into WW1. FDR had to move a lot of intertia to overcome the resolve of a lot of people in positions of power to stay out of that nasty European scrap. Fortunately he prevailed, by pulling a lot of end-runs that thwarted their desire until it became politically acceptable to declare war. A LOT of people should be thankful that they were "better late than never", because the industrial might of the U.S. was essential to the war effort. Stalin and Hitler were both meglomaniacs and their own people had as much to fear from them as the opposing forces. There was no real chance of "finishing the job" by the Allies going into Russia, although the decision to hold up Allied forces from beating the Russians to Berlin was not the right one. Churchill was right about that. War makes strange bedfellows and all political and military leaders tell their own people the stories that coincide with their short term objectives, just like in peacetime, except that it is easier to control the feedback.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well don't stop there, the Chinese also sailed across the Atlantic from North America as there is DNA in Italy and Portugal in certain areas, and even today people that live in those areas (Italy, Portugal) have the same DNA from the time the Chinese landed as their ancestors.
In other words, if you are Portugese or Italian, you may be Chinese as well.
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There's some Great Armchair Generals that should be promoted to 5 Star before the day is through on this thread! LOL
My point exactly they could have made a deal with Stalin before but they did not because they thought Hitler would take care of Stalin for them and then they cried when he makes a deal with Hitler. Don’t get me wrong Stalin was a fool for thinking Hitler was not going to come after him when the time was right. I have no love for Stalin but I think the west has to bear some of the responsibility for the situation. It’s not just black and white like most people like to think. Just look at what going on in the Middle East right now.
Some Mongol dna is in fact present in the Portuguese population, along with north African, Japanese & a whole bunch of others. What can I say, if you made it that far you usually didn't want to go back & any further west required a boat.
"... Stalin ... thinking ... Hitler was not going to come after him when the time was right."
That's not what Stalin thought. They both knew it would come to a fight eventually because they both knew that neither their personal ambitions nor their divergent versions of socialism could coexist. Stalin was a fool for thinking he knew better, with all of his intelligence services were telling him what they could see, as to when Hitler would think the time was right.
The west didn't make a deal with Stalin before because he was leading the party and country that was dedicated to overthrowing them eventually by any means and he was not to be trusted and had nothing to offer them. It was only when Soviet Russia had Nazi Germany as an enemy in common with the west that a deal could be made. Before then Russia preferred to make an alliance with the Nazi regime because it suited their purposes, which included mischief and a threat to occupy the western democracies.
As to "crying" about Stalin's dealings with the Nazis, the west justly pointed out that he was an evil and untrustworthy operator who chose to line up with another of his ilk. Fair comment. His propaganda organs went on and on in pretty uncomplimentary terms about the west when he thought it suited him.
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Um, do you have any evidence? Other than Menzies theories? Lots of people moved back and forth through what is now Siberia and Central Asia. Remember the Silk Road? Remember the Mongols sacking Baghdad? Take the 4-5000 year old Caucasian mummies found in Xinjiang, whole cities of them. Very touchy subject in China apparently.Unless you can determine at what point the DNA entered a population its presence is meaningless, obviously. The seafaring nations, particularly the Portugese intermarried widely, and those they married often came from mixed backgrounds. A common event in port cities you know.
IMO Asian cultures are not yet able to discuss these matters rationally for the most part. Too wrapped up in their "face" issues and unable to recognize the implicit racism in many of their most ancient attitudes.
- Location
- London, Ontario
don't tell that to the americans... They're convinced the won the war by themselves.
hahaha!
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Great pictures of the Germans and Russians "in bed together" after they each took half of Poland after invading. They look Happy together holding hands, just like Iggy and Wacky Jacky do!
After the honeymoon was over it was like two tomcats scrapping over a mouse at Kursk!
I guess that's what they wanted.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
They give you Clap Comrade! Clapity-Ap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Plisetskaya
The great Russian ballerina, Maya Plisetskaya, who's father, at the orders of Stalin, was shot for hiring Trotsky's unemployed secretary, and her mother sent to a Gulag for eight years for being married to her father, claim in an interview that SHE killed Stalin with her dancing.
She was forced to dance for Stalin and his cronies, and she wanted to make eye contact with Stalin while dancing for this monster, who had caused so much pain for her and family, but never did.
However, the very next day after her performance for Stalin, Stalin got very ill and died...
If you have a chance, rent and watch her DVD about her dancing and life story from the library, and you will get the story of the Soviet Union. Five years ago, at her 80th birthday, she danced at Bolshoi. Together with her composer husband, she created a ballet version of the opera "Carmen", which shocked the Soviet censors so much for being very ###y, and had her banned for 3 months because of it. In her interview she said: "The Communist don't know were babies comes from".
You can also watch the ballet "Carmen" on Youtube, performed by the facinating Russian ballerina, Svetlana Zakharova, and see for yourself, what put fear in the Communists minds
Mikhail Baryshnikov, who otherwise was pampered big times by the Communist, left for the artistic freedom of the USA and the west. In Soviet Union, he was, by the communist, not allowed to dance modern ballet, among others, because according to the Communist, "modern ballet did not serve any purpose for the Communist society".
Baryshnikov made a movie, "White Nights", which very much explains the Soviet society under the Communist rule.
The great Russian ballerina, Maya Plisetskaya, who's father, at the orders of Stalin, was shot for hiring Trotsky's unemployed secretary, and her mother sent to a Gulag for eight years for being married to her father, claim in an interview that SHE killed Stalin with her dancing.
She was forced to dance for Stalin and his cronies, and she wanted to make eye contact with Stalin while dancing for this monster, who had caused so much pain for her and family, but never did.
However, the very next day after her performance for Stalin, Stalin got very ill and died...
If you have a chance, rent and watch her DVD about her dancing and life story from the library, and you will get the story of the Soviet Union. Five years ago, at her 80th birthday, she danced at Bolshoi. Together with her composer husband, she created a ballet version of the opera "Carmen", which shocked the Soviet censors so much for being very ###y, and had her banned for 3 months because of it. In her interview she said: "The Communist don't know were babies comes from".
You can also watch the ballet "Carmen" on Youtube, performed by the facinating Russian ballerina, Svetlana Zakharova, and see for yourself, what put fear in the Communists minds
Mikhail Baryshnikov, who otherwise was pampered big times by the Communist, left for the artistic freedom of the USA and the west. In Soviet Union, he was, by the communist, not allowed to dance modern ballet, among others, because according to the Communist, "modern ballet did not serve any purpose for the Communist society".
Baryshnikov made a movie, "White Nights", which very much explains the Soviet society under the Communist rule.
Unless you can determine at what point the DNA entered a population its presence is meaningless, obviously. The seafaring nations, particularly the Portugese intermarried widely, and those they married often came from mixed backgrounds. A common event in port cities you know.
IMO Asian cultures are not yet able to discuss these matters rationally for the most part. Too wrapped up in their "face" issues and unable to recognize the implicit racism in many of their most ancient attitudes.
There is enough evidance found in coastal Indian villages that the Chinese arrived on this coast, including coins and anchors. Since the currents favoured a northern eastward crossing and southern return, it makes sense. Certainly their vessels were more than capable. There is also significant artifacts showing they sent time in Madagascar. I take some of the grander claims with a large bag of salt.
A fishing trawler brough up a 2,000 Chinese vase in the St of Juan Defuca. The problem was there is no supporting evidance to place it with a wreck, it could have come from one of the later shipwrecks. I volunteered at the Maritime Museum and the you can see the fingerprint of the potter who made where he was a minor flaw. You imagine him cursing in Han/Cantonese Chinese about what a bad day he was having!
